Dialogue Between Satan and God in the Book of Job

Job is the issue. God wanted to deal with Job. Satan happened to be the means to do that. There's no indication God was manipulated into anything. Because you have repeatedly said that a good God wouldn't hurt Job as part of your argument, and I was answering it. A good God would most certainly hurt Job, as has been believed by the writers of Scripture and Christians from the beginning. Mother Theresa was just an example to answer YOUR argument."The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."

No. You have been shown that God brought it up and that it was God's idea for Satan to choose the misfortunes that befell Job. You have also been shown that those misfortunes were common, everyday occurances that happen to people - good and bad - all the time.Satan didn't "cause" them any more than he causes the tides or the phases of the moon. They are facts of life caused by the structure of the universe. Try to understand that. You have been shown that that is not the case. If anything, Satan was tricked into looking like the bad guy. And you have been shown that there was no "evil" involved - only normal events in the course of human life. God "enabled" nothing unusual. At most, He altered the time line. The only conflict is between Job and his friends and within Job himself. Once again, the whole point of the story is how Job reacted to his misfortunes. The details of who "caused" what are incidental.

quote:

---

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

---

It doesn't say specifically that Satan was a son of God, but he was certainly among them. I have asked you before, if he wasn't an employee, what was he doing at the board meeting?God asks Satan to account for himself:

quote:

---

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?

---

And Satan, like a good lackey, complies:

quote:

---

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

---

God directs the conversation:

quote:

---

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job...?

---

God delegates authority:

quote:

---

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power....

---

And He puts strict limits on that authority:

quote:

---

... only upon himself put not forth thine hand.

---

And Satan did as he was told:

quote:

---

So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

---

We've been through this before. Isn't it time that you showed us where there is anything but a master/servant relationship between God and Satan?

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Everything does originate with God, including Satan (who was allowed to exist) so in that sense God is the origin of all initiated action.If I have a rowdy dog and my dog bites you, am I not responsible for allowing Bowser to get off his leash?Of course in context, we may well say that it is not the calamities that are the issue so much as it is Jobs response to the calamities.Then we may ask why God allowed the whole shindig to happen in the first place.In order to answer that, consider what the world would be like if God prevented every uncomfortable event or feeling from ever touching anyone. What types of creations would we be? How would we act?(In other words, even if I stubbed my toe I would feel no pain)

So would you suggest that humanity merely reacts to actions already set in motion? Are we ourselves incapable of initiating anything that was not already preprogrammed into our nature and habit?The robbers of Jobs cattle and sheep for example. Were these Robbers initiating an evil action or were they reacting to evil that had come upon them?Furthermore....was Job himself initiating his decision to remain faithful and subservient to God or was he reacting to Gods authority and protection on him?In other words, do we initiate our decision to obey God or do we react to Gods initiation of adopting us as sons and daughters. (sounds a bit Calvinist, I know! )

Mine is based on the story of Job. God meets meets with Satan, they converse, they make bets and sometimes human affliction is the result.
That's the way of the universe.

What makes something evil? Is it evil if I cook up a brew that causes your body to be completely covered with boils? Is it "natural" if Satan intentionally does it?

Over the next forty years I am going to lose my parents, break my leg, abandoned by my wife, lose my sister, brother and my two kids,lose all my investments and be diagnosed with cancer. These maybe normal over a forty year period but still incredibly difficult to handle. Now consider a person who could control time deciding to intentionally compress all these in a week. I don't think I would find it at all funny.Pedestrians get run over by vehicles every day. It's one of the "natural" consequences of living in a modern world. Yet if I were to intentionally start driving my Humvee over people I am sure you would consider my actions evil. Edited by honda33, : No reason given.Edited by honda33, : No reason given.

I don't think the Book of Job takes a position one way or the other.

quote:

---

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

---

It says he was that way. It doesn't necessarily imply that he was always that way.The story tells us that once we come to God, there is no reason to turn our backs on Him. He giveth and he taketh away. The gifts He gives us are not the reason for our faith. Can we assume it was not their first offense? They were doing their own redistribution of the wealth instead of relying on God to do the giving and the taking away. In a sense, they are the antithesis of Job. I don't think the story answers that question (and it's probably a different topic).

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This is your speculation: How is that based on the story of Job? Where are 9/11 or Allah mentioned in the story of Job? If I say, "Maybe Long John Silver had Parkinson's disease," that speculation is not based on the story of Job. Still missing the point. What happened to Job was not the result of a conversation or "bet" between God and Satan. It was the result of being alive and of having a family and property. Both God and Satan are incidental to the story.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Read your own post: INTENT.If you INTEND to run over people, that is evil. That's not what we're talking about.A house falling down or lightning killing a flock of sheep is not INTENT to do evil. There is a reason why things like that are called "acts of God": Sure, God controls all things - He allows bad things to happen because that's the way the universe is. An act of God is called an "act of god" because it might happen anywhere, at any time, to anybody. Insurance companies are disinclined to insure against them because they are umpredictable.Why is it so hard to understand that "acts of God" are not based on INTENT to do evil?

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

But Satan intended to do bodily harm to Job. It was intentionally, maybe Satan's motive was pure but his action was intentional. This is not mindless nature taking its course. These can be the results of mindless nature. When an intelligent being actively causes these things to occur to achieve some purpose, there is INTENT. Job's calamity was not random. Job didn't happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was the victim of a bet between two intelligent beings who decided to alter the course of nature to pull off the bet.
BTW Hurricanes are more predictable than car accidents. How about "acts of Satan" ? Are they based on the Intent to do evil?

Still stuck on Satan, eh? What part of "It was God's idea" do you not understand?God initially forbade Satan to do any "bodily harm" to Job:

quote:

---

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.

---

At the end of Chapter 1, Satan had already been proven wrong - Job could still say, "At least I have my health." So Satan squirmed:

quote:

---

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

---

Notice that again he deferred to God, rather than exceeding his authority.It was only as an afterthought, a backup plan, that Satan thought of doing "bodily harm" to Job. How does that indicate original intent? It was exactly that. Every event was purely natural. If Satan had turned Job into a newt, you might have a case. Where does the text say the events were "caused" by Satan and/or God? Once again, they were natural events. They just happened to befall Job all at once. They would/might have happened anyway. Only the timeline was altered.It's not a question of intent, it's a question of scheduling. That's exactly what happened. He had all the calamities of a normal lifetime telescoped into a short time period. That was necessary for dramatic effect. If the story said, "And then twenty years later he was robbed again," the description of Job's inner conflict would have been a lot less effective. I'll defer to the man from Antigua on the subject of hurricanes. (Though I don't recall any hurricanes in the Book of Job - and the tornados around here are pretty unpredictable.) No. Have you been reading the thread? Satan is nothing but a flunky in the Book of Job. He has no intent.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Finally someone posting about the point.The OP is flawed because it pulls one short segment out of a very long story and excludes the rest of Job.The part that is pulled out is a plot device designed to set the basics for the story. It is like pulling out the lines where the Pied Piper leads all the children from the village never to be seen again and debating the morality of the action.Unless the whole story is considered the purpose of the story is lost and frankly, in the context of the whole story the section outlined in the OP is simply as stated, just a plot device.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No it wasn't God idea. All God did in the first two chapters is boast about His servant Job. Satan used this boasting to get God to do things to Job. God even admitted to be moved by Satan: I don't know ... maybe I connected the dots. Edited by honda33, : No reason given.

You can't just ignore the first chapter. It was God who brought up the subject of Job. Satan did nothing and said nothing until God brought it up. He did nothing without God's permission.If God said that Satan "moved" Him, how does that negate Satan's abject subordination? Connect the dots for the rest of us, please.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC