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Author | Topic: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Actually we would have to decide whether the words of the writer are trustworthy and credible. Jesus didn't write the story, he supposedly told it. So we really have to ask all those questions about the author and unfortunately we don't know the name of the actual author. These are the real issues and decisions that we are left alone with before God. But this is not the topic. Not sure if you have read the whole thread, but I suggest you read the OP before asking questions that don't add to the discussion. If you feel that the scriptures support eternal torment related to what I stated in the OP, then share the scripture.
purpledawn writes: If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life. Matt 25:46”"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Punishment is a penalty and the penalty is forever, never to be reversed. Torment is torture. If someone were to endure eternal torment, he would be experiencing it eternally and therefore has eternal life. Not a good eternal life, but continuing eternally none the less. Eternal punishment means that the person ceases to exist, never to be given eternal life. The penalty is eternal not the person life. Eternal torment would mean that all receive eternal life, but some are tortured and others are on streets of gold. If you feel that the teachings of Jesus support eternal torment, then share the verses keeping in mind what I have explained above. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The second death is only mentioned in Revelation, which is a symbolic vision. How does its symbology in Revelation deal with eternal torment? quote:Not a good analogy since God can raise people from the dead. The resurrection is for the righteous. The unrighteous will be like the criminals burned up in Gehenna. They have no place in the world to come. No resurrection. That is their punishment after death, no eternal life. They cease to exist anywhere. The body is dead and the soul is dead. This penalty is never reversed. There is a difference between punishing a child and tormenting a child. quote:I'm not familiar with perdition, so again you will need to explain how the symbology in Revelation deals with this topic. quote:Punishment and torment are not the same. You haven't shown that they are. quote:Exactly. The righteous go into eternal life and the nonrighteous don't, they cease to exist. That is very opposite eternal life. Life-Death quote:No I don't. But I see no torment. Show me that punishment means torment. Out of curiosity why do you prefer torment, as opposed to ceasing to exist? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I have no idea what you are saying in Message 67, so unless you can show it is explained or supported in the Bible, I have no answer.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Using the definitions provided in Strong's, I'm looking at the word eternal in relation to life and punishment as meaning without end. I haven't really looked any deeper than that. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Neither do I and that is why we are having this discussion. You didn't address any of the topical content of Message 87. Second Death The fact that the second death is called "second death" negates the idea of torment. Death is final. Punishment vs Torment Has God shown us that he is capable of torment? I don’t see support for it. God didn’t torture the world of Noah, but destroyed it with water.God didn’t torture Sodom and Gomorrah, but destroyed them quickly with fire. God ordered the Canaanites to be killed swiftly, not tortured. I haven’t found anything in the Law of Moses providing for imprisonment and torture. The sacrificial animals weren’t even allowed to suffer. Death was to be as quick and as painless as possible. So God has not shown torment to be a part of his nature. There is a difference between eternal punishment and eternal torment or torture. An eternal punishment is a judgment whose consequences are without end. Whereas eternal torment, means a person is experiencing pain and agony without end. Show me where the Bible speaks of eternal torment (not punishment). "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:God has the power to torment, but his actions recorded in the Bible show that, to date, he hasn't. Therefore we should be able to trust that he won't torment his children (mankind). He will discipline and punish, but not torture. Just as I have the power to torment my child, but my child trusts that I won't because I never have.
quote:As we've noticed I understand the written word very differently than you do. Not much I can do about that though. IMO, you're jumping to a conclusion that isn't necessarily there. The writers of Mark and Luke don't mention the appointed time, but if you read Matthew closely, the statement does not imply that the appointed time was the time of torture. It doesn't specify what is to happen at the appointed time. They simply inquired if Jesus was there to torture them before whatever was to happen at that time. But Jesus didn't torture them in any of the books, they were sent into the pigs, who died. Now I'm not versed on how demons can and can't die, but Jesus did not demonstrate torture or address it.
quote:This isn't about demons, this thread is about humans. I found this interesting in Jude:
1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. If Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, then where is the eternal flame? There is no fire burning on the site of Sodom or Gomorrah. Maybe eternal doesn't mean what we think it means!? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That is the question that is off topic, not my own topic question. Good grief, read! It is quite obvious that you have no clue what I'm arguing about. Read the OP again. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Since you don't want to deal with the symbolism of Revelations, I'll take it at face value. In chapter 9 the first woe is written about. As I understand it, the woes are warnings. A warning not a judgment. So the vision presents a five month warning. In chapter 20:10 there is some question as to whether the phrase forever and ever really means without end or just a very long period of time. This also only dealt with the devil, the beast and the false prophet (singular). This isn't really talking about all unrighteous people which is what I'm talking about.
quote:It has nothing to do with believing the individual verse, it has to do with understanding the overall vision and the message it contains. Your scatter technique is interesting, but doesn't help me see any flaw in my original conclusion. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That has nothing to do with this topic. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Not sure what you are going on about. You asked a question and I answered it.
jaywill writes: In Revelation some men are tormented for "five months" (Rev.9:10) and then afterward tormented "forever" (Rev.20:10). On what basis are we to believe in "five months" of torment and yet reject "forever and ever" torment? purpledawn writes: It has nothing to do with believing the individual verse, it has to do with understanding the overall vision and the message it contains. The other narrative was to explain how I read context of the verses. You're asking questions about assumptions I haven't made. I really have no answers for you. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Not if there isn't any eternal torment. That is the topic of this discussion. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:What in the world are you talking about? Your question:
jaywill writes: On what basis are we to believe in "five months" of torment and yet reject "forever and ever" torment? purpledawn writes: It has nothing to do with believing the individual verse, it has to do with understanding the overall vision and the message it contains. There is no believing or rejecting, it has to do with understanding the message of the vision. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Nope. All off topic. I didn't say there wasn't any eternal punishment. I said no eternal torment.
If you're going to butcher it, at least get it right.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I covered it starting in Message 66.
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