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Author Topic:   Do we need a better concept than species?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 39 of 73 (227946)
07-30-2005 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by randman
07-29-2005 8:42 PM


Re: Eliminate All Species!!
Actually, nature in terms of reproduction does indeed work within a somewhat discrete classification. Creatures can either reproduce new creatures by sexual reproduction, or they cannot, and they can either reproduce fertile offspring or not.
True, but that doesn't mean things are discrete. Fertile Hybrids between species are possible, but not necessarily guaranteed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by randman, posted 07-29-2005 8:42 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by randman, posted 08-01-2005 5:03 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 45 of 73 (228362)
08-01-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by randman
08-01-2005 5:03 AM


After their kind
However, evolutionists are being disingenious when they slam the concept of a "kind" as if they are not in the same boat when it comes to classifying creatures.
Actually not really. Evolutionists recognize that such concepts are merely conveniences, that they are simply man made classifications that make our life easier. Evolutionists make no absolute statements about what a species can or cannot do other than in the defining of the species...and whenever they define a species they recognize it as being an illusory concept...so if they define species as being a collection of interfertile organisms, they will recognize that a seperate species can be interfertile with mixed success.
Creationists categoricaly state that all organisms multiply after their kind. That any descent with modification is limited to this concept of kind. That their is a 'kind barrier' of sorts. They make an absolute statement about kinds but give no absolute definition of kind...thus their idea gets slammed.
That would be like a physicist seeing a problem with QM and proposing that bosons can never pass or interact beyond the Modulous barrier. When asked what this modulous barrier is they say "it's the thing that bosons can't interact beyond'. When asked how they know of this barrier they say "Well...we've never seen a boson interacting with anything on Tau Ceti, so there must be a barrier between here and there that stops this".
My point is regardless of the definition there are some concrete parameters that nature works in, as far as sexual reproduction.
Then again, I don't think that is strictly true. As far as I am aware some hybrids are a hit or miss kind of affair. Sometimes the breeding fails entirely, or the hybrid isn't fertile, or the hybrid doesn't survive to maturity. There are species that are perfectly interfertile but will refuse to breed with one another (failure to recognize mating signals etc). Its a spectrum that peters out to nothing, not some concrete parameter. The only thing we would agree on is that there a place on this spectrum where we can say that interfertility reaches 0.
As far as hybrids that can produce fertile off-spring, maybe the correct answer is to consider them just one species despite the fact this can occur even across genus and sub-families, (pseudorca and certain kind of porpoise for example).
Perhaps, but then that gets a bit crazy and counterintuitive. Instead its probably easier to simply refer to them as seperate species that are interfertile.
I think we'd agree that if 2 species can interbreed, they were once joined as one species.
Well, given that you know about common descent, you'll know I agree with it. If you can agree with it then that's great.

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 Message 44 by randman, posted 08-01-2005 5:03 AM randman has replied

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 Message 48 by randman, posted 08-02-2005 1:21 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 51 of 73 (228749)
08-02-2005 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
08-02-2005 1:21 AM


Re: After their kind
I still think it is disingenious to criticize the concept of "kind" and then talk about "species, families, orders", etc,...
When I make an absolute statement about what can happen to familes or orders etc, you can ask me to back that up with some definitions. If I said, evolution can occur but it never crosses the order boundary...then that's great, we can discuss that we know what an order is and we can look to see if my claim has merit.
However, when I say "Creatures can evolve, but they remind the same 'kind of animal'" - but fail to say that kind means Sparrow, Worm eating bird, bird, flying creatures, warm-blooded animals, egg laying organisms, organisms with replicating cells, anything with carbon in it - then I am effectively saying nothing at all.

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 Message 48 by randman, posted 08-02-2005 1:21 AM randman has not replied

  
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