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Author Topic:   Evolution is random! Stop saying it isn't!
Percy
Member
Posts: 18370
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 16 of 99 (415304)
08-09-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Bodhitharta
08-08-2007 11:14 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
Hi Bodhitharta,

I see you've returned and edited your post, but you included no indication of what you changed, and I never saw the original. I'm guessing you added the explanation that appears after the link?

Anyway, that's good if that's what you did, but the other point made to you is that this is off-topic in this thread. If you'd like to discuss your own views then you should propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics. You can just copy the text of your message for the proposal.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-08-2007 11:14 PM Bodhitharta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 3:28 PM Percy has responded

    
Bodhitharta
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 10
From: Tacoma, WA, USA
Joined: 08-08-2007


Message 17 of 99 (415346)
08-09-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
08-09-2007 11:10 AM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
I thought this was on topic, the reason is because I am saying that evolution is random and yet life is not random.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 08-09-2007 11:10 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 08-09-2007 4:55 PM Bodhitharta has responded
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2007 5:13 PM Bodhitharta has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18370
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 18 of 99 (415354)
08-09-2007 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Bodhitharta
08-09-2007 3:28 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
Bodhitharta writes:

I thought this was on topic, the reason is because I am saying that evolution is random and yet life is not random.

That's not at all what you said in your Message 13. If you'd like to join the discussion here about randomness then welcome aboard, while if you want to discuss the assertions you make in Message 13 then you should propose a new thread. And, of course, you can do both.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 3:28 PM Bodhitharta has responded

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 Message 20 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:06 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19815
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 19 of 99 (415357)
08-09-2007 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Bodhitharta
08-09-2007 3:28 PM


topic subtleties
I thought this was on topic, ...

Let me see if I can help you see the problem.

... I am saying that evolution is random ...

That is the topic -- and how it is random and how it is not random.

... and yet life is not random.

That is not the topic. There are other issues, logical problems, misunderstanding of evolution, mixing up abiogenesis, just for starters, and it will take considerable discussion to cover these aspects of your video and the excerpt from it (it IS your video right?)

Enjoy.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 3:28 PM Bodhitharta has not yet responded

  
Bodhitharta
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 10
From: Tacoma, WA, USA
Joined: 08-08-2007


Message 20 of 99 (415378)
08-09-2007 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
08-09-2007 4:55 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
Okay, I will just talk about the randomness in this thread. The ToE is about random mutations resulting in predictable outcomes of information usually by the so-called means of "natural selection". Natural selection has been a term greatly misused as it can only genuinely mean Biological viability/fitness. Nature doesn't actually "select" anything. Therefore if the ToE states that randomness tempered by NS is the biological outcome it makes no sense in several ways especially in terms of sexual reproduction. There is a movement now as to where you get people saying "well, it's not actually random because of natural selection" but what does that have to do with mutations being random? the fact is, If the mutations are random then the biological viability/fitness would also be random.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 08-09-2007 8:36 PM Bodhitharta has responded
 Message 23 by Wounded King, posted 08-09-2007 8:46 PM Bodhitharta has responded
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2007 11:07 PM Bodhitharta has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4022 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 21 of 99 (415381)
08-09-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Bodhitharta
08-09-2007 8:06 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
Bodhitharta writes:

the fact is, If the mutations are random then the biological viability/fitness would also be random.

That does not follow. Natural selection is the antithesis of randomness. If a process is selective that by its very nature is not random but selective.

Natural Selection (biological viability if you will) is a filter. A filter is selective and not random.

I can think of a number of simple thought experiments to demonstrate this. For example, assume you have a mixture of spherical and square shapes in a box of the same primary dimension. If you cut a hole in the box to match the radius of the spherical shape and give the box a good random shaking, the shapes will jostles about randomly. Occasionally a spherical shape will pop out but never a square. This selection or filtering process is not random.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:06 PM Bodhitharta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:45 PM iceage has responded

  
Bodhitharta
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 10
From: Tacoma, WA, USA
Joined: 08-08-2007


Message 22 of 99 (415382)
08-09-2007 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by iceage
08-09-2007 8:36 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
Nature doesn't process anything! It is quite humorous for you to give nature attributes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 08-09-2007 8:36 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by iceage, posted 08-09-2007 9:01 PM Bodhitharta has responded

    
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 23 of 99 (415383)
08-09-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Bodhitharta
08-09-2007 8:06 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
If the mutations are random then the biological viability/fitness would also be random.

This is true as far as it goes. If we assume that a population of genetically identical individuals of equal fitness gives rise to a new generation who differ only due to random mutations then the distriution of fitness in the next generation will reflect the randomness of the causative mutations.

The 'non-randomness' of natural selection is principally just some obvious observations on the repercussions of certain types of mutation. Mutations which prevent the embryo from developing will not be passed on to the next generation, mutations causing sterility will not be passed on to the next generation, mutations which lead to an individual having more offspring will tend to be over represented in the next generation, mutations which lead to an individual having less offspring will tend to be under represented in the next generation.

So while the initial distribution and effect of the mutations is random the set of mutations passed on to the subsequent generation and their frequency is dependent on the interaction of each particular mutation with its environment. Assuming no further mutations occur in the next generation the frequencies of mutations in the subsequent generation will not reflect the random distribution of the mutations in the previous generation.

The whole system is only random to the extent that it has some random element in it.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:06 PM Bodhitharta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:50 PM Wounded King has responded
 Message 88 by Doddy, posted 08-14-2007 9:40 PM Wounded King has responded

    
Bodhitharta
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 10
From: Tacoma, WA, USA
Joined: 08-08-2007


Message 24 of 99 (415384)
08-09-2007 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Wounded King
08-09-2007 8:46 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
So what about "Random" positive mutations?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Wounded King, posted 08-09-2007 8:46 PM Wounded King has responded

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4022 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 25 of 99 (415385)
08-09-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Bodhitharta
08-09-2007 8:45 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
Bodhitharta writes:

Nature doesn't process anything

Here are a few natural processes:

  • Graded sediments.

  • Concentration of minerals.

  • The breaking of light into its constituents (ie rainbow).

    Edited by iceage, : bullets


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:45 PM Bodhitharta has responded

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  • Bodhitharta
    Member (Idle past 4172 days)
    Posts: 10
    From: Tacoma, WA, USA
    Joined: 08-08-2007


    Message 26 of 99 (415387)
    08-09-2007 9:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by iceage
    08-09-2007 9:01 PM


    Re: random selection and a model of evolution
    So "nature" is intending to do these things?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by iceage, posted 08-09-2007 9:01 PM iceage has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by iceage, posted 08-09-2007 9:22 PM Bodhitharta has responded

        
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4022 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 27 of 99 (415389)
    08-09-2007 9:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Bodhitharta
    08-09-2007 9:04 PM


    Re: random selection and a model of evolution
    Bodhitharta writes:

    So "nature" is intending to do these things?

    Nope. Never even implied that. They are just a few natural processes that filter randomness.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 9:04 PM Bodhitharta has responded

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    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 19815
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 10.0


    Message 28 of 99 (415399)
    08-09-2007 11:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Bodhitharta
    08-09-2007 8:06 PM


    random mutation and non-random selection
    ... usually by the so-called means of "natural selection". Natural selection has been a term greatly misused as it can only genuinely mean Biological viability/fitness. Nature doesn't actually "select" anything. Therefore if the ToE states that randomness tempered by NS is the biological outcome it makes no sense in several ways ...

    Nothing "so called" about it. When one individual dies and another lives selection has occurred. That selection affects the next reproduction cycle. When an individual is sick, that could affect its survival or its ability to breed, and it has been selected. All that is needed is very small selection pressure in any one direction to have a significant effect over time.

    Your inability to make sense of it is no hindrance to nature behaving as it has for billions of years.

    ... especially in terms of sexual reproduction.

    Most emphatically false. When a male elk takes over a herd of female elk he prevents other males from mating with the females, thus eliminating their genes from the next generation. That is selection and nothing BUT selection.

    Even with more "democratic" species the number of opportunities for mating is different for different individuals due to sexual selection on the part of one or both potential mates, and those more able to mate are selected for producing more of the next generation than those less able to mate. That is selection and nothing BUT selection.

    If the mutations are random then the biological viability/fitness would also be random.

    Before selection, but not after, as not all mutations are selected equally (why they call it selection and not viability\fitness).

    Enjoy.


    Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
    compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:06 PM Bodhitharta has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-10-2007 4:08 AM RAZD has responded

      
    Bodhitharta
    Member (Idle past 4172 days)
    Posts: 10
    From: Tacoma, WA, USA
    Joined: 08-08-2007


    Message 29 of 99 (415438)
    08-10-2007 4:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by iceage
    08-09-2007 9:22 PM


    Re: random selection and a model of evolution
    How do "natural" processess "filter" anything? Are these processess designed to filter?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by iceage, posted 08-09-2007 9:22 PM iceage has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by Doddy, posted 08-10-2007 6:35 AM Bodhitharta has responded

        
    Bodhitharta
    Member (Idle past 4172 days)
    Posts: 10
    From: Tacoma, WA, USA
    Joined: 08-08-2007


    Message 30 of 99 (415439)
    08-10-2007 4:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
    08-09-2007 11:07 PM


    Re: random mutation and non-random selection
    So is the male elk acting with intention?

    BTW, Are you saying that in an accident or terrorist attack "natural selection" is taking place?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2007 11:07 PM RAZD has responded

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