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Author Topic:   Elitism and Nazism
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 31 of 125 (54566)
09-09-2003 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dan Carroll
09-09-2003 12:33 PM


Re: Responding to Critics
Hi Dan
They also developed the Volkswagon....so if you drive a VW you must also be a Nazi....gotta hate those VW driving pythagoran Nazi's...who did algebra on their way to Dachau

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-09-2003 12:33 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-09-2003 12:49 PM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 34 by Syamsu, posted 09-09-2003 12:54 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 125 (54569)
09-09-2003 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Mammuthus
09-09-2003 12:42 PM


Re: Responding to Critics
Oh, clearly. "Farvergnugen" is just another way of saying "kill all Jews, gypsies, communists, and homosexuals."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2003 12:42 PM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5620 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 33 of 125 (54572)
09-09-2003 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dan Carroll
09-09-2003 12:33 PM


Re: Responding to Critics
You are misinformed, they weren't taught math in the Hitler schools, or gravity theory, that was taught in the regular school system, but they were taught Darwinism in the Hitlerschool.
You are referring to the regular German army, not the Nazi SS troops I think. The SS was typically explicitely anti-christian, although IMO in a paradoxical way this kind of anti-christianity is still an offshoot from Christianity.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-09-2003 12:33 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-09-2003 1:09 PM Syamsu has replied
 Message 51 by Peter, posted 09-10-2003 12:47 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5620 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 34 of 125 (54574)
09-09-2003 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Mammuthus
09-09-2003 12:42 PM


Re: Responding to Critics
I see, now you make a joke of it all. That's how seriously you take the holocaust.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2003 12:42 PM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Mammuthus, posted 09-10-2003 3:51 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 125 (54577)
09-09-2003 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Syamsu
09-09-2003 12:51 PM


Re: Responding to Critics
quote:
You are misinformed, they weren't taught math in the Hitler schools, or gravity theory, that was taught in the regular school system, but they were taught Darwinism in the Hitlerschool.
But just so we can be clear... the Nazi government did preach the tenets of algebra to impressionable youth. Children were taught that the variables and unknown quantities of life could be extrapolated and reduced to a concrete value through reasoning and logic. Obviously a humanist approach, which resulted in the extermination of 11 million people.
How long will it take before we back away from the same evil teachings in our own country?
quote:
You are referring to the regular German army, not the Nazi SS troops I think.
Yup.
quote:
The SS was typically explicitely anti-christian
What are you basing this on?
quote:
I see, now you make a joke of it all. That's how seriously you take the holocaust.
I can't speak for Mammuthus, but I take the Holocaust very seriously. What I don't take seriously is trying to blame the Holocaust on people hearing about a scientific theory. So yeah, I make jokes about it.
Mind you, I don't think Christianity automatically leads to Nazism any more than Darwinism. I think when a pack of sick bastards wants to kill, they'll whip out any crap justification they can. Same as people who blow up gay bars and say it's for Jesus, or who shoot a bunch of kids at school and claim it was Marilyn Manson's idea, or any old reasoning they want.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 09-09-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Syamsu, posted 09-09-2003 12:51 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Syamsu, posted 09-10-2003 1:14 AM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 43 by Wounded King, posted 09-10-2003 7:24 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5620 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 36 of 125 (54672)
09-10-2003 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dan Carroll
09-09-2003 1:09 PM


Re: Responding to Critics
In the USA the same evil teachings were outlawed in many states for many years, as you can read in the John Scopes thread.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-09-2003 1:09 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
The General
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 125 (54676)
09-10-2003 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Mammuthus
09-09-2003 4:08 AM


Re: Responding to Critics
Mammuthus
While I have not read wordswordsman's post yet, if he did write what you say he did they he is without a doubt mistaken. Christian should mean the same as Christ-like, and I know for a fact that to be supportive of slavery is not Christ-like. (The same would go of 'Christian' during the Holocaust. I dont deny many played a part. What I do take issue with is the fact again they are certainly not Christ-like and so not real Christians. But if there are many like this that is the Churches fault and not those who have a real belief in CHrist).
In no way do I minimalize the holocaust. It was arguably the worst atrocity of the certury. (By the way, I also was in the Dachau camp over the summer and the things that happened there bother me very much also. Just as the sign there says in five different languages, 'Never Again,' it is a sobering visit). It was terrible but how does that make me shy away from Darwin and Nietczhe's involvement (even if it was just promoting a vague theory). These are not just my opinions. As I stated, and this you failed to respond to, but prominent evolutionists also accept Darwin and Nietczhe's involvement. Oh, wait---you have never heard of Sir Arthur Keith? If I made known such ignorance you would go off with the most bizare of accusations 'fundamentalist' 'utter lack of science' etc. All I will suggest is look him up. Your lack of knowledge on a particular source in no way discredits him.
His quote is on science also, actually his field of study 'evolution.' I didnt realize you considered evolution a religion.
General

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2003 4:08 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Mammuthus, posted 09-10-2003 4:11 AM The General has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 38 of 125 (54689)
09-10-2003 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Syamsu
09-09-2003 12:54 PM


Re: Responding to Critics
I certainly take it more seriously than you. You rather act as a revisionist regarding the motivations of both the nazi party, the Germans that were complicit (not to mention the French and the Vichy regime) and the Catholic church in particular which aided and to this day benefits from the 3rd Reich via a church tax initiated during the time the nazi's were in power.
And if you make a stupid assertion and then state you refuse to back it up with evidence then I will proceed to make fun of you like I would anyone else foolish enough to argue the way you do.
[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 09-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Syamsu, posted 09-09-2003 12:54 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Syamsu, posted 09-10-2003 6:20 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 39 of 125 (54693)
09-10-2003 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by The General
09-10-2003 1:38 AM


Re: Responding to Critics
quote:
While I have not read wordswordsman's post yet, if he did write what you say he did they he is without a doubt mistaken. Christian should mean the same as Christ-like, and I know for a fact that to be supportive of slavery is not Christ-like. (The same would go of 'Christian' during the Holocaust. I dont deny many played a part. What I do take issue with is the fact again they are certainly not Christ-like and so not real Christians. But if there are many like this that is the Churches fault and not those who have a real belief in CHrist).
I will try to dig up Wordswordsmans threads (or if Admin could lend a hand?) How do you know that wordswordsman was wrong? His claim is that HE was christ-like. He made this argument often. He also claimed to be the keeper of all truth christian and would therefore claim you are wrong. How do you know he is wrong? How does he know you are wrong? Both of you claim to be real Christians and to know the truth. His claim was slavery is consistent with christianity and that the bible supports his assertion. You claim otherwise. Yet both of you claim to be true christians.
quote:
In no way do I minimalize the holocaust. It was arguably the worst atrocity of the certury. (By the way, I also was in the Dachau camp over the summer and the things that happened there bother me very much also. Just as the sign there says in five different languages, 'Never Again,' it is a sobering visit).
The entire continent reeks of the WWII. I have lived in Germany about 5 years in total and the holocaust pervades society at every level...and wild assertions about who and what is responsible for the 3rd Reich are not tolerated very well by the Jewish community, by the muslims, by the christians, by the politicians by anybody. If you have an accusation to make you better have irrefutable documentation.
quote:
It was terrible but how does that make me shy away from Darwin and Nietczhe's involvement (even if it was just promoting a vague theory).
Darwin was a scientist and had a specific theory about how the diversity of life developed by natural selection over time. Nietczhe was a philosopher who contributed nothing to the theory of evolution...strange that you conflate the writing of the two.
quote:
These are not just my opinions. As I stated, and this you failed to respond to, but prominent evolutionists also accept Darwin and Nietczhe's involvement. Oh, wait---you have never heard of Sir Arthur Keith? If I made known such ignorance you would go off with the most bizare of accusations 'fundamentalist' 'utter lack of science' etc. All I will suggest is look him up. Your lack of knowledge on a particular source in no way discredits him.
from:
Emuseum – Minnesota State University, Mankato
Sir Arthur Keith
1866 - 1955
Sir Arthur was a Physical Anthropologist and an Anatomist. He was an excellent teacher and inspired many of his students. He is best known for his work on fossilized humanoid forms.
He was born on February 5, 1866 to John Keith and Jessie MacPherson. In 1888, he received a Bachelor of Medicine Degree from the University of Aberdeen, then traveled as a physician on a gold mining trip to Siam. There, he dissected monkeys and became interested in racial types. In 1892, he returned to Britain and studied anatomy. In 1893, he won the first Struthers Prize at Aberdeen. In 1894, he became a fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons of England. In 1895, he was appointed Senior Demonstrator of Anatomy at the London Hospital and in 1899, he became head of the department.
He also studied primate skulls and published An Introduction to the Study of Anthropoid Apes in 1897and in 1900 he married Celia Gray. In 1902, his work Human Embryology and Morphology was published. In 1908, he resigned from the hospital and became the Conservator of the Royal College of Surgeons Museum. He thought that curators should make the resources of their museums available to researchers.
In 1911, he published Ancient Types of Man, in which he said that moderns humans are as old as extinct forms of humans. In 1915, he published The Antiquity of Man, which basically had the same theme, and was an anatomical survey of all important human fossil remains. He was knighted in 1921. In 1931, New Discoveries was published in which he admitted that modern humans probably arose from types already separate in the early Pleistocene. In 1932, he helped found a research institute at Downe, where Charles Darwin once lived, and was appointed Master of the Institute in 1933, where he worked until his death on January 7, 1955 at the age of 88.
As I suspected he is a long dead and for modern evolutionary biology not particularly relevant scholar who worked on human evolution. This is your sum total of the "many evolutionists" that support your claim that Darwinism leads to Nazism? That is pretty pathetic.
Now here are some things for YOU to look up for your evolutionary edification:
1. Daniel Kevles, In the name of Eugenics http://www.amazon.com...
2. Charles Darwin, The Orgin of species http://www.amazon.com...
3. Douglas Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology http://www.amazon.com...
Amazon.com links provided for your convenience.
Maybe if you read a little bit of this easy to get material you will actually be able to debate from a position of knowledge as opposed to bald assertion without merit.
quote:
His quote is on science also, actually his field of study 'evolution.' I didnt realize you considered evolution a religion.
General
If I considered evolution a religion I would turn my brain off, believe what anyone who claimed to be an authority said, and worship Darwin, Keith, Dawkins, Gould etc. as prophets....instead I attack them and criticize them every chance I get...so no, I consider evolution a scientific theory like the theory of gravity or any other scientific theory....do you know what a scientific theory is?
{Shortened display form of 3 URL's, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by The General, posted 09-10-2003 1:38 AM The General has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-10-2003 6:06 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3976
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 40 of 125 (54704)
09-10-2003 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Mammuthus
09-10-2003 4:11 AM


Re: Responding to Critics
quote:
I will try to dig up Wordswordsmans threads (or if Admin could lend a hand?)
Wordswordsman did not start any topics. The forum search function, however, can be used to track his messages.
I can't supply a link directly to the results, but if you go to http://http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/search_new.cgi?action=int...= and enter "Wordswordsman" (just the name) into the "search by user name" box, you will get a list of messages.
If not so by default, the "Search Forum/Archive" box should be set to "Search all open forums and archives", and the "Search By" box should be set to "Messages...".
Have fun,
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Mammuthus, posted 09-10-2003 4:11 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5620 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 41 of 125 (54705)
09-10-2003 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Mammuthus
09-10-2003 3:51 AM


Re: Responding to Critics
Sure the French and the Vichy regime....wow really impressive detailed knowledge you have..., about more or less insignificant side issues. The church tax which the Nazi's hated.... You have no clue. You are just posturing, intimidating, silencing, not discussing.
You have made up your mind that Darwinism had nothing much to do with Nazism, and any evidence like Hitleryouth being taught Darwinism in schools styled to Darwinist notions can not change that one little bit.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Mammuthus, posted 09-10-2003 3:51 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Mammuthus, posted 09-10-2003 6:39 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 42 of 125 (54709)
09-10-2003 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Syamsu
09-10-2003 6:20 AM


Re: Responding to Critics
quote:
Sure the French and the Vichy regime....wow really impressive detailed knowledge you have..., about more or less insignificant side issues.
The Vichy regime an insignificant side issue ? Nice revisionism...ask the families of all the people murdered under that regime if they think it was insignificant.
And who are you to criticize detail? You provide absolutely nothing but unsupported assertions (which is why I think you were previously confined to the Free for All as an internet troll).
quote:
The church tax which the Nazi's hate
And the evidence for this is what?...oh let me guess, you are not going to provide any since that would be against your ethics i.e. to actually support what you say.
quote:
You have no clue
Coming from you I will take that as a compliment
quote:
You are just posturing, intimidating, silencing, not discussing.
You are just asserting, lying, and trolling, not discussing.
quote:
You have made up your mind that Darwinism had nothing much to do with Nazism, and any evidence like Hitleryouth being taught Darwinism in schools styled to Darwinist notions can not change that one little bit.
You were the one who claimed that you would refuse to provide evidence for your assertions and nobody with a single firing neuron in their brain would take your unsupported assertions as "evidence".
Corrupted versions of christianity and the inherently corrupt eugenics movement had a lot to do with the nazi ideology....so I guess by your definition both christianity and eugenics must be eradicated?...the eugenics movement has collapsed but christianity is still around..guess you have work to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Syamsu, posted 09-10-2003 6:20 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 43 of 125 (54717)
09-10-2003 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dan Carroll
09-09-2003 1:09 PM


Maybe Syamsu is thinking of the links between the nazis and paganism. The SS in particular was associated with a number of attempts to bring about a new nazi neo-paganism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-09-2003 1:09 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-10-2003 10:18 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 44 of 125 (54725)
09-10-2003 8:43 AM


And a little more for The General and Syamsu
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary,
He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but
the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"....the personification of the devil as the symbol
of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11,
precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin
the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
more here : http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
and then all I could find in English translated quotes on eugenics
In the struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the healthiest. And struggle is always a means for improving a species' health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher development...Nature does just this by subjecting the weaker part to such severe living conditions that by them alone the number is limited, and by not permitting the remainder to increase promiscuously, but making a new and ruthless choice according to strength and health. No more than Nature desires the mating of weaker with stronger individuals, even less does she desire the blending of a higher with a lower race, since, if she did, her whole work of higher breeding, over perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, night be ruined with one blow. Historical experience offers countless proofs of this. (1:X)
[Speaking against artificial population control:] For as soon as procreation as such is limited and the number of births diminished, the natural struggle for existence which leaves only the strongest and healthiest alive is obviously replaced by the obvious desire to 'save' even the weakest and most sickly at any price, and this plants the seed of a future generation which must inevitably grow more and more deplorable the longer this mockery of Nature and her will continues. And the end will be that such a people will some day be deprived of its existence on this earth; for man can defy the eternal laws of the will to conservation for a certain time, but sooner or later vengeance comes. A stronger race will drive out the weak, for the vital urge in its ultimate form will, time and again, burst all the absurd fetters of the so-called humanity of individuals, in order to replace it by the humanity of Nature which destroys the weak to give his place to the strong. (1:IV)
For anyone who believes in a higher development of living creatures must admit that every expression of their life urge and life struggle must have had a beginning; that one subject must have started it, and that subsequently such a phenomenon repeated itself more and more frequently and spread more and more, until at last it virtually entered the subconscious of all members of a given species, thus manifesting itself as an instinct. (2:II)
The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development of organic living beings would be unthinkable. The consequence of this racial purity, universally valid in Nature, is not only the sharp outward delimitation of the various races, but their uniform character in themselves. The fox is always a fox, the goose a goose, the tiger a tiger, etc., and the difference can lie at most in the varying measure of force, strength, intelligence, dexterity, endurance, etc., of the individual specimens. But you will never find a fox who in his inner attitude might, for example, show humanitarian tendencies toward geese, as similarly there is no cat with a friendly inclination toward mice. Therefore, here, too, the struggle among themselves arises less from inner aversion than from hunger and love. In both cases, Nature looks on calmly, with satisfaction, in fact. (1:X)
Note that the last paragraph sounds like the crappy fallacies Syamsu spews about evolution....by your logic Sy, that makes you a Nazi.

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Syamsu, posted 09-10-2003 11:06 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 125 (54742)
09-10-2003 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Wounded King
09-10-2003 7:24 AM


quote:
Maybe Syamsu is thinking of the links between the nazis and paganism. The SS in particular was associated with a number of attempts to bring about a new nazi neo-paganism.
Maybe. But until he addresses the stuff I said, it's one of those ineffable mysteries I've heard so much about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Wounded King, posted 09-10-2003 7:24 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
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