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Author Topic:   Evolution and paranormal things
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5290 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 17 of 49 (105288)
05-04-2004 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
05-04-2004 4:16 PM


crashfrog writes:
I'm open to the potential existence of paranormal abilities, just so you know. Though they've hardly been demonstrtated to any degree of certainty, to my view.
Nonetheless, if they evolved, then they did so through natural selection and random mutation. It's difficult indeed to believe that you can't imagine some kind of survival benefit to paranormal abilities, so I don't see what the problem is.
If you want to argue that they're somehow irreducably complex, though, I don't see how you could even begin to do that without a fully-fledged explanation of the paranormal mechanism.
I endorse this. Let's take it as read that there are paranormal abilities as indicated in the example. Why is this a problem for evolution?
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 05-04-2004 4:16 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by redwolf, posted 05-04-2004 5:35 PM Sylas has replied
 Message 30 by PecosGeorge, posted 05-05-2004 4:20 PM Sylas has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5290 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 21 of 49 (105363)
05-04-2004 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by redwolf
05-04-2004 5:35 PM


redwolf writes:
Before worrying about evolution, which of the three choices would you go with, if for some reason you had to bet $100 as to what the case of the kid who appears to have flown F4s off the Natoma Bay at Iwo Jima actually amounted to? The choices are fraud, actual reincarnation, or picking up some sort of a signal which is just out there somehow or other.
None of the above; it's a false trichotomy. I'd prefer to reserve judgement... but since you set it up as a bet, I'd put my money on delusion or overactive imagination inflating events without necessarily an explicit attempt to deceive or be fraudulent.
But I don't really have the basis to make a firm judgement on the matter; and I can't see how the bet could ever be resolved, especially given that the child's reported past life memories are fading.
Still, this is off-topic. The question was... how could paranormal abilities evolve? I'm more than happy to assume for the sake of the thread that paranormal abilities exist.
I can see reasons for debating whether or not paranormal abilities exist; but I can't see how their existence would present any particular difficulty for evolution.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by redwolf, posted 05-04-2004 5:35 PM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by redwolf, posted 05-04-2004 11:22 PM Sylas has replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5290 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 23 of 49 (105429)
05-04-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by redwolf
05-04-2004 11:22 PM


redwolf writes:
Things like wings and flight feathers are sufficiently difficult to describe an evolutionary path for despite our understanding precisely how they work. Something so complicated that we don't even have a clue as to how it works, you would think, would be substantially more difficult to try make evolutionary claims for.
Now, you might claim that telapathy was at least partly understood given the works of Julian Jaynes. But picking up a signal leftover from WW-II??
How does that work?
Actually, evolution is very good at making very complex things for which we can't tell how they work.
There are only two ways we know of to make extremely complicated things. One is by engineering, and the other is evolution. And of the two, evolution will make the more complex.
-- Danny Hills, quoted by Kevin Kelly in Out of Control
A clear example of this is in Evolutionary Electronics by Adrian Thompson at the University of Sussex. He used evolutionary principles to evolve hardware that worked, but defined comprehension. From his thesis, here is a description of a circuit developed by this means. My emphasis in bold.
The results described here represent the state of the art in the exploration of radically new territories of design space. The circuit is small, but definitely not trivial. For a human designer to solve this problem using only 32 cells, with no clock or external components, would be very difficult indeed (if feasible at all).
The circuit vividly demonstrates the power of unconstrained evolution. With a freedom to explore rich structures and dynamics, evolution has been able to exploit the natural behaviours arising from the physics of the device. [...] We still do not understand fully how it works: the core of the timing mechanism is a subtle property of the VLSI medium. We have ruled out most possibilities: [...]
It now seems indisputable that hypotheses H1 and H2 are true: `Evolutionary algorithms can explore some of the regions in design space that are beyond the scope of conventional methods.' The fascinatingly alien tone-discriminator circuit was produced using a very basic evolutionary method, with no great difficulty other than to leave behind preconceptions of how electronics should be. The circuit gives a tantalising glimpse of the theoretically-possible engineering attractions, such as small size by finding forms and processes that are natural to the VLSI medium. However, it is invalid to make a direct comparison with conventionally-designed circuits: these have a much larger operational envelope.
So as to your question, it misses the point. There is plenty about human biology that defies comprehension as to how it works; this in itself is a normal consequence of evolutionary development.
The question relevant for this thread is... why is there any special problem for evolution associated with the paranormal?
Cheers -- Sylas
This message has been edited by Sylas, 05-04-2004 10:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by redwolf, posted 05-04-2004 11:22 PM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by redwolf, posted 05-05-2004 10:11 AM Sylas has replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5290 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 27 of 49 (105514)
05-05-2004 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by redwolf
05-05-2004 10:11 AM


redwolf writes:
Sylas writes:
A clear example of this is in Evolutionary Electronics by Adrian Thompson at the University of Sussex. He used evolutionary principles to evolve hardware that worked, but defined comprehension. From his thesis, here is a description of a circuit developed by this means. My emphasis in bold.
If that is supposed to answer anything here, it's totally unclear to me as to how. ...
It shows that just because a thing is complex or we don't know how it works, is no basis for saying that it must be a problem for evolution.
You are the one saying that there is something about the paranormal that means evolution is not a plausible way for it to arise. But you cannot reasonably defend that concrete claim until you know more about how the phenomenon works.
I make no claim at all for knowing anything much about the phenomenon at all. I don't know how it works, or what it requires to work, and I'm not even sure whether it actually exists at all. More detail and confirmed information is needed before we can have meaningful hypotheses on any of these things.
It is a logical fallacy to say that because I don't know how it works, then this means it is evidence against evolution. You are the one who has to know more about how it works before you can make claims about what processes are plausible or implausible as a way of producing it.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by redwolf, posted 05-05-2004 10:11 AM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by redwolf, posted 05-05-2004 12:37 PM Sylas has replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5290 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 29 of 49 (105581)
05-05-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by redwolf
05-05-2004 12:37 PM


redwolf writes:
A typical example of the sort of evolutionary scenario I'm talking about would be as follows:

Certain kinds of light-bodied dinosaurs developed feathers which they used for insulation and protection from the elements, and then the climate turned hot for a long period of time. A certain number of these creatures mutated in such a way as to have something or other resembling flight feathers on their arms, and they began to notice that they could use their arms with the proto-flight feathers as fans, i.e. that they could keep cool by moving their arms and fanning themselves. After a number of generations of this, some of these creatures noticed that, if they moved their arms rapidly while running, they were being lifted off the ground slightly by the air currente generated. And so on and so on until you have flying birds.
Now, Assuming that Nkisi, the little grey parrot is actually reading his trainor's mind, and given the thoroughness of Sheldrake's methodology I see practically no chance that this is not the case, or given the example of the dogs which know when their owners turn for home, or the kid who knows what sort of problems an F4 has at age two, and assuming you could come up with some way of describing how such things work, the question would become, can you come up with some halfway plausible scenario for explaining how such a thing might develop, what organs are involved, and what purpose those organs served while they were in developmental stages.
It seems obvious to me that this would be extraordinarily difficult.
I'll ignore the defects in your attempt to describe what an evolutionary scenario looks like; other than to note for the record that the proposed example of an evolutionary explanation for flight is a crude parody encompassing some bad misconceptions. Your point is clear, however; we need plausible intermediates.
The question of "what organs" is not one for the evolutionists. That is your problem, to address how the phenomenon works in the present. Without that, we don't have enough information to judge whether a sequence of intermediates is plausible or not. In fact, all models to explain the origins of the phenomenon are at something of a loss. This is not a criticism of any specifically proposed origin, be it design or chance or evolution or something else; it just means we don't know enough about the phenomenon to say much about whether it is evidence for, or against, some model for origins.
All we can go on, so far, is a rather badly deliniated instance of a child who (apparently) possesses knowledge and insight obtained (somehow) from an adult in the past (maybe).
Assuming for the sake of argument that the phenomenon is real, the possibility for adaptive advantages to the child able to tap into such insights should be very clear; and they also would appear to scale appropriately. A very minor intuition able to take advantage of experience of others could be very useful. Perhaps the detection of these insights is something we all have, to a limited extent.
Perhaps that "sixth sense" or crawling skin that crops up at unexpected times is a consequence of sharing information from some other life in the past which is alerted by a dangerous situation in which we find ourselves. Perhaps even that had predecessors in the intuitions we have about others, whether they be trustworthy or dangerous. Perhaps such intuition can be tilted into a more appropriate direction by the capacity to tap into information from otherwhen. And perhaps that had predecessors in a psychic connection between living individuals; with a capacity to leave that connection lying around while we are absent, or even after our death, has an evolutionary beneficial effect through increased survival of our tribe or family, who are best positioned to take benefit.
But this is all sheer speculation. It will remains so, until you figure out more about this phenomenon and how it works. Only then will you a basis for holding it up against any model for the origin of the phenomenon.
As things stands, there is nothing that seems a special problem for evolution. Assuming the phenomenon exists, evolution should be able to work with it just fine.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by redwolf, posted 05-05-2004 12:37 PM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by redwolf, posted 05-05-2004 5:08 PM Sylas has not replied

  
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