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Author Topic:   Could any creationist explain the DNA-differences from a sudden creation?
Percy
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Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 39 of 89 (35819)
03-30-2003 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
03-30-2003 12:13 PM


quote:
What was the odds of DNA occurring naturally that is actually a position theorised in science?
"Theorized" odds? That sounds quite guessy. Shouldn't odds be mathmatically calculated determinations?
You've misparsed the sentence. "Theorized" modifies "position", not "odds".
Mark's question was rhetorical. He's trying to get you to think about how impossible it is know the odds if we don't even know how it happened.
Look at it this way. Say we enter you in a race, and you want to know the odds that you'll win, so you ask the race distance, and we say we don't know. You ask who your competitors will be, whether it will be people your own age, or world-class atheletes. We say we don't know. You ask if it will be cross-country, on a track or on a road. We say we don't know. How are you going to calculate the odds?
It's the same with the first DNA. How did it come about? We don't know? Did it come about in a single step, dozens of steps, hundreds of steps, thousands of steps? We don't know. Did it arise on land, beneath the land, on the sea or beneath the sea? We don't know. How, then, are you going to calculate the odds?
In other words, any website or book that is telling you that you can calculate the odds of DNA forming naturally is just making things up. At a minimum science believes that the first DNA was a result of gradual change over a long period of time, and that there were many stages prior, and this is the basis of Mark's rhetorical question. If the odds you speak of are being calculated for DNA forming in a single step from scratch from a soup of consituent chemicals then this doesn't represent any view within science.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 03-30-2003 12:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 50 of 89 (35860)
03-30-2003 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by PhospholipidGen
03-30-2003 5:10 PM


When you're typing a reply into the little box you'll see several links to the immediate left. Click on the one that says, "*UBB Code is ON". It will tell you all you need to know.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by PhospholipidGen, posted 03-30-2003 5:10 PM PhospholipidGen has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 73 of 89 (36371)
04-06-2003 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by PhospholipidGen
04-04-2003 9:39 PM


PhospholipidGen writes:
For example, July 2000 article in Scientific American, a peer-reviewed journal...
Not an important point, but SciAm is not a "peer-reviewed" journal. While the articles in SciAm certainly go through various levels of review and editing, they are not "peer-reviewed" but are primarily a recitation of recent developments targeted at laypeople.
Mayr makes the following clear statement about evolutionary theory in an article entitled "Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought"...
"Evolutionary biology, in contrast with physics and chemistry, is a historical science - the evolutionist attempts to explain events and processes that have already taken place. Laws and experiments are inappropriate techniques for the explication of such events and processes. Instead one constructs a historical narrative, consisting of a tentative reconstruction of the particular scenario that led to the events one is trying to explain." (p. 80)(Emphasis mine)
By not holding to any laws of nature, TOE cannot be tested on any scientific level. By not holding to any laws, experimentation is indeed impossible. Predictions based upon cladistics is, as Mayr points out, only an exercise in "story telling" i.e., making up stories about how one thinks an organism came to be based upon the assumption that evolution is a reality.
You've misunderstood what Mayr is saying. He isn't saying that the TOE doesn't adhere to physical laws, because it most certainly does. All he's saying is that it is inappropriate to develop evolutionary laws. Mayr makes his point more clearly on page 81 when he says:
Another aspect of the new philosophy of biology concerns the role of laws. Laws give way to concepts in Darwinism. In the physical sciences, as a rule, theories are based on laws; for example, the laws of motion led to the theory of gravitation. In evolutionary biology, however, theories are largely based on concepts such as competition, female choice, selection, succession and dominance. These biological concepts, and the theories based on them, cannot be reduced to the laws and theories of the physical sciences.
It isn't that biological concepts don't follow these laws, but simply that they are made at such a high level of complexity and abstraction that they cannot be expressed in terms of fundamental physical laws.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by PhospholipidGen, posted 04-04-2003 9:39 PM PhospholipidGen has not replied

  
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