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Author Topic:   evolution calculations
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5902 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 17 of 92 (183923)
02-08-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
02-08-2005 10:50 AM


Re: Mathematical proof?
No. Hardy-Weinberg is a theoretical model (with lots of assumptions and limitations) that shows how alleles can become fixed in a population.
OTOH, Orr's equations can show how cumulative mutations can result in hybrid incompatibilities leading to speciation that absolutely guarantees evolution happens. Since I have no clue how to post complex equations here, I can only reference the article where he puts forward his theoretical model:
H. Allen Orr, 1995, "The Population Genetics of Speciation: The Evolution of Hybrid Incompatibilities", Genetics 139:1805-1813
quote:
Abstract:
Speciation often results from the accumulation of complementary genes, ie., from genes that, while having no deleterious effect within species, cause inviability or sterility when brought together with genes from another species. Here I model speciation as the accumulation of genic incompatibilities between diverging populations. Several results are obtained. First, and most important, the number of genic incompatibilities between taxa increases much faster than linearly with time. In particular, the probability of speciation increases at least as fast as the square of the time since separation between two taxa. Second, as Muller realized, all hybrid incompatibilities must initially be asymmetric. Third, at loci that have diverged between taxa, evolutionarily derived alleles cause hybrid problems far more often than ancestral alleles. Last, it is easier to evolve complex hybrid incompatibilities requiring the simultaneous action of three or more loci than to evolve simple incompatibilities between pairs of genes. These results have several important implications for genetic analyses of speciation.
IOW, speciation has to happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2005 10:50 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by sfs, posted 02-08-2005 3:57 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5902 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 25 of 92 (183994)
02-08-2005 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by sfs
02-08-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Mathematical proof?
You're right, I misspoke. H-W deals with allele frequencies and how they change over time leading to specific ratios (equilibrium). It also shows that a variant can never be lost from a population once it's there.
One of the assumptions of H-W is that of an infinite population size, so that genetic drift does not occur.
Among others like completely random mating, non-overlapping generations, no mutation, no immigration/emigration, and no natural selection (although you can add a selection coefficient to H-W and get a reasonable result that still fits with the original equations).
In a particular model. Models are not reality, and are only valid to the extent to which they have been tested against reality.
Right. That's why I'm not a theoretician. I prefer to use models that at least attempt to reflect something like reality. H-W doesn't reflect reality, Orr comes a bit closer but he's dealing with something completely different than the basic pop-gen equations.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5902 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 30 of 92 (184071)
02-09-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Wounded King
02-09-2005 4:55 AM


Re: Mathematical proof?
That, and the fact that under any of the H-W equations + additional coefficients no allele is ever lost in a population. Ever.

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 Message 29 by Wounded King, posted 02-09-2005 4:55 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Brad McFall, posted 02-09-2005 9:04 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5902 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 37 of 92 (184155)
02-09-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Saddleback
02-09-2005 4:26 PM


Re: Fundamental Issue: Origin and Formation of Information
Well, it may or may not be a "fundamental issue". It IS off-topic for this thread. There are a bunch of still-open threads on the board that discuss the information question. You might want to consider reposting this in one of them. You're likely to get better answers to your statements there.
Just a thought.

This message is a reply to:
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