Message 31 of 294 (334500) 07-23-2006 11:28 AM

Reply to: Message 30 by RickJB 07-23-2006 11:24 AM

Some people don't get it. They think that God is something we made up. (Many gods are made up.) And, NO, I can't prove anything as to why the God I serve is any different.

Faith is an acronym.
Forsaking
All
I
Trust
Him

If you've never met Him, maybe you should talk to Hank! :rolleyes: (Just kidding)

Message 32 of 294 (334516) 07-23-2006 1:06 PM

Reply to: Message 26 by Faith 07-23-2006 8:57 AM

From where I sit, that is a big part of the faith thingy. You were indoctrinated into YEC. If you did not have someone to teach the basis of that particular mindset , you would have have faith in it.

Message 33 of 294 (334529) 07-23-2006 1:51 PM

Reply to: Message 26 by Faith 07-23-2006 8:57 AM

Here is what Dawkins said:

Are you saying that your faith is different because it's true?
How do you know it is true?

Also, twice now you have brought up torture. I do not see how this is relevent. But you mention personal knowledge. Can you explain that?

Message 34 of 294 (334531) 07-23-2006 2:08 PM

Reply to: Message 27 by iano 07-23-2006 10:03 AM

There were also many many people who believed in polytheism throughout the ages. In Japan, people sincerely believed the emperor was descended from god. People died for Pharaoh. Many people had real beliefs. How are yours different?

Edited by Chief Infidel, : No reason given.

Message 35 of 294 (334532) 07-23-2006 2:09 PM

Reply to: Message 31 by Phat 07-23-2006 11:28 AM

I have no desire to negate your (or anyone else's) faith.

I object only when the religious cannot accept that "faith" is exactly what it is.

I wouldn't put too much stock in acronyms, by the way. A quick google search came up with:

Foolish
And
Ignorant
Theological
Hogwash

;)

Message 36 of 294 (334541) 07-23-2006 3:31 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Chief Infidel 07-22-2006 6:53 PM

i think that faith, inasmuch as it is hope, is a virtue. it is good to trust, it is good to hope. but, it is not good to faith to question. the worst thing you can do to your brain is stop asking questions, to stop being skeptical. i was taught skepticism as part of my religious upbringing. i was told that if i did not check and recheck what anyone said against relaity and what i considered to be correct, that i was not doing my job. i think my brain trnslated that to mean that the bible (or any religious understanding, really) is a tool that can be used or misused, but it is not necessarily a source of knowledge. this was probably not the intentions of my teachers, but it is the result.

i trust that eventually everything will pan out. i have faith in the inherrent utility of humanity. i believe this comes from inherrent and intended purpose, though not a "kinded" creation. i hope against all things and i think this is what will allow me to make an impact on the world. i think this is what will allow me to pursue the studies that must be pursued outside of the norm. i believe i was made with this hope for that purpose. do i know what that means anymore? no. do i have to? no. but will i stop asking why or how or what if i'm wrong? no.

i think the thing about faith is that it has the potential to provide peace in the presence of questions. i'm always asking, but it doesn't disquiet me too much, because whatever the truth it, whatever the answers to the questions, i know that it's going to be okay. perhaps the true need is for more people to have a more vague sense of faith and less of this unamendable bill of beliefs. that is not faith. that is foolishness and stubbornness.

Message 37 of 294 (334556) 07-23-2006 5:06 PM

Reply to: Message 28 by iano 07-23-2006 10:09 AM

That is an oxymoron.

Message 38 of 294 (334568) 07-23-2006 5:51 PM

Reply to: Message 37 by nator 07-23-2006 5:06 PM

If someone would like to bring up the good of faith, I would also like this question answered in light of Heaven's Gate, Jonestown, suicide bombings, witches being burned at the stake, the spanish inquisition, and all the other atrocities carried out in the name of religion.

Message 39 of 294 (334571) 07-23-2006 5:56 PM

Reply to: Message 38 by Chief Infidel 07-23-2006 5:51 PM

quote:

---

Why is it a virtue to base beliefs with life and death implications on something other than empirical evidence?

---

Well, you are asking the wrong person, as I don't think it's a virtue at all, but a failing.

:)

Message 40 of 294 (334574) 07-23-2006 6:01 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Chief Infidel 07-22-2006 6:53 PM

As a Theist I believe that God has instilled the concept of the "right thing" in all of us and he has given us the freedom to act on or reject the "right thing".

As a Christian I believe that God has spiritually touched my consciousness, (soul, spirit) and given me a fresh start spiritually and has enhanced my desire to choose the "right thing", while still leaving me the option of rejecting it.

There also of course other factors concerning the person of Jesus Christ that science can neither disprove or prove that I take on faith.

Do I ask you to respect that faith. Not really. I assume that you don't believe in God. I don't agree with you but I respect your faith, and your right to those views. We all have faith even if it's faith in the fact that we are it, that there is no greater intelligence than our own, and that there is nothing or nobody to answer to at the end of this life.

I guess people of the theistic faiths, if anything are only asking to have their faith respected in the way that you assume yours is.

Message 42 of 294 (334576) 07-23-2006 6:05 PM

Reply to: Message 32 by ramoss 07-23-2006 1:06 PM

Is it being "indoctrinated" to read books about it and be persuaded?

Message 43 of 294 (334577) 07-23-2006 6:10 PM

Reply to: Message 33 by Chief Infidel 07-23-2006 1:51 PM

Stories don't inspire faith. Written history sometimes does though.

It's based on true history, not stories.

Can't leave out a major test of the virtue of faith, that many have experienced over the history of Christianity.

I meant that group belief, tradition, is useless. Many people grow up performing the rituals and reciting the creeds of religion without fully comprehending, let alone believing, them. The belief has to be arrived at individually and personally.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 44 of 294 (334579) 07-23-2006 6:14 PM

Reply to: Message 38 by Chief Infidel 07-23-2006 5:51 PM

Good historical evidence has just as much weight as empirical evidence, and in this case there is a LOT of empirical evidence reported in the history; and NOT to believe the honest people who reported it is an act of bad faith and dishonesty and maybe even character assassination.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 45 of 294 (334607) 07-23-2006 7:14 PM

Reply to: Message 44 by Faith 07-23-2006 6:14 PM

quote:

---

and NOT to believe the honest people who reported it is an act of bad faith and dishonesty and maybe even character assassination.

---

What people?