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Author Topic:   Why is Faith a Virtue?
Phat
Member
Posts: 7347
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 31 of 294 (334500)
07-23-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by RickJB
07-23-2006 11:24 AM


Re: respect the straw man
I've read it, Rick. Just because religion can be manipulative and shallow does not negate the object of our faith.

Some people don't get it. They think that God is something we made up. (Many gods are made up.) And, NO, I can't prove anything as to why the God I serve is any different.

Faith is an acronym.
Forsaking
All
I
Trust
Him

If you've never met Him, maybe you should talk to Hank! :rolleyes: (Just kidding)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RickJB, posted 07-23-2006 11:24 AM RickJB has responded

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 2803
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 32 of 294 (334516)
07-23-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-23-2006 8:57 AM


Re: Period?
Isn't it?

From where I sit, that is a big part of the faith thingy. You were indoctrinated into YEC. If you did not have someone to teach the basis of that particular mindset , you would have have faith in it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 8:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 294 (334529)
07-23-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-23-2006 8:57 AM


Re: Period?
Remember the context is Dawkins' teapot story. His straw man of faith was that it was believed in ONLY because everybody else believed in it. That's not how faith works. You can't truly believe, let alone have the kind of faith that endures scoffing and debunkery and even torture, unless you have personal knowledge of some sort about the thing you believe in, at least a conviction based on historcal facts that testify to its actual existence.

Well then how does faith work?

Here is what Dawkins said:

Everybody in the society had faith in the teapot. Stories of the teapot had been handed down for generations as part of the tradition of society. There are holy books about the teapot.

I still don't understand why your faith is different than the faith in the teapot. If you are going to say that your faith is based on "historical fact" then how would this be different than the stories "handed down for generations" in the teapot analogy?

Are you saying that your faith is different because it's true?
How do you know it is true?

Also, twice now you have brought up torture. I do not see how this is relevent. But you mention personal knowledge. Can you explain that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 8:57 AM Faith has responded

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Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 294 (334531)
07-23-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by iano
07-23-2006 10:03 AM


Safety in Numbers
On the other hand you have millions who testify to a personal relationship with God.

Man has been wrong before. By the millions.

The primary reason why someone believes is because God brings them to the point of being able to.

There are even more muslims than christians, some are very extreme. These people are not "just kidding" about Islam when they fill their pockets with ball bearings, bolts, and rat poison and then blow themselves up in the mall or crash jats into the side of a building at 400 mph. Who brought them to the point of being able to believe, Allah?

There were also many many people who believed in polytheism throughout the ages. In Japan, people sincerely believed the emperor was descended from god. People died for Pharaoh. Many people had real beliefs. How are yours different?

Edited by Chief Infidel, : No reason given.


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RickJB
Member (Idle past 1433 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 35 of 294 (334532)
07-23-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
07-23-2006 11:28 AM


Re: respect the straw man
phat writes:

.....does not negate the object of our faith.

I have no desire to negate your (or anyone else's) faith.

I object only when the religious cannot accept that "faith" is exactly what it is.

I wouldn't put too much stock in acronyms, by the way. A quick google search came up with:

Foolish
And
Ignorant
Theological
Hogwash

;)


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 Message 31 by Phat, posted 07-23-2006 11:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 36 of 294 (334541)
07-23-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Chief Infidel
07-22-2006 6:53 PM


i have thought long and hard about my response to this thread (in internet time).

i think that faith, inasmuch as it is hope, is a virtue. it is good to trust, it is good to hope. but, it is not good to faith to question. the worst thing you can do to your brain is stop asking questions, to stop being skeptical. i was taught skepticism as part of my religious upbringing. i was told that if i did not check and recheck what anyone said against relaity and what i considered to be correct, that i was not doing my job. i think my brain trnslated that to mean that the bible (or any religious understanding, really) is a tool that can be used or misused, but it is not necessarily a source of knowledge. this was probably not the intentions of my teachers, but it is the result.

i trust that eventually everything will pan out. i have faith in the inherrent utility of humanity. i believe this comes from inherrent and intended purpose, though not a "kinded" creation. i hope against all things and i think this is what will allow me to make an impact on the world. i think this is what will allow me to pursue the studies that must be pursued outside of the norm. i believe i was made with this hope for that purpose. do i know what that means anymore? no. do i have to? no. but will i stop asking why or how or what if i'm wrong? no.

i think the thing about faith is that it has the potential to provide peace in the presence of questions. i'm always asking, but it doesn't disquiet me too much, because whatever the truth it, whatever the answers to the questions, i know that it's going to be okay. perhaps the true need is for more people to have a more vague sense of faith and less of this unamendable bill of beliefs. that is not faith. that is foolishness and stubbornness.


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 1085 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 294 (334556)
07-23-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by iano
07-23-2006 10:09 AM


"empiricist dogma."

That is an oxymoron.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by iano, posted 07-23-2006 10:09 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 5:51 PM nator has responded
 Message 48 by iano, posted 07-23-2006 8:14 PM nator has responded

    
Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 294 (334568)
07-23-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by nator
07-23-2006 5:06 PM


"empiricist dogma."

That is an oxymoron.


Thank you. This goes to the heart of my question. Why is it a virtue to base beliefs with life and death implications on something other than empirical evidence?

If someone would like to bring up the good of faith, I would also like this question answered in light of Heaven's Gate, Jonestown, suicide bombings, witches being burned at the stake, the spanish inquisition, and all the other atrocities carried out in the name of religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by nator, posted 07-23-2006 5:06 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 07-23-2006 5:56 PM Chief Infidel has responded
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 6:14 PM Chief Infidel has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1085 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 294 (334571)
07-23-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Chief Infidel
07-23-2006 5:51 PM


quote:
Why is it a virtue to base beliefs with life and death implications on something other than empirical evidence?

Well, you are asking the wrong person, as I don't think it's a virtue at all, but a failing.

:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 5:51 PM Chief Infidel has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 3735
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 40 of 294 (334574)
07-23-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Chief Infidel
07-22-2006 6:53 PM


I'll respect your faith if you'll respect mine
I have faith that the "right thing" is the always "right thing" to do.

As a Theist I believe that God has instilled the concept of the "right thing" in all of us and he has given us the freedom to act on or reject the "right thing".

As a Christian I believe that God has spiritually touched my consciousness, (soul, spirit) and given me a fresh start spiritually and has enhanced my desire to choose the "right thing", while still leaving me the option of rejecting it.

There also of course other factors concerning the person of Jesus Christ that science can neither disprove or prove that I take on faith.

Do I ask you to respect that faith. Not really. I assume that you don't believe in God. I don't agree with you but I respect your faith, and your right to those views. We all have faith even if it's faith in the fact that we are it, that there is no greater intelligence than our own, and that there is nothing or nobody to answer to at the end of this life.

I guess people of the theistic faiths, if anything are only asking to have their faith respected in the way that you assume yours is.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-22-2006 6:53 PM Chief Infidel has not yet responded

    
Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 294 (334575)
07-23-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
07-23-2006 5:56 PM


Yes, I know. I responded to you because I liked your point. The questions were directed at anyone else reading the thread who would like to answer them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 07-23-2006 5:56 PM nator has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 16041
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 42 of 294 (334576)
07-23-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ramoss
07-23-2006 1:06 PM


Re: Period?
You were indoctrinated into YEC. If you did not have someone to teach the basis of that particular mindset , you would have have faith in it.

Is it being "indoctrinated" to read books about it and be persuaded?


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 16041
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 43 of 294 (334577)
07-23-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Chief Infidel
07-23-2006 1:51 PM


Re: Period?
Here is what Dawkins said:
Everybody in the society had faith in the teapot. Stories of the teapot had been handed down for generations as part of the tradition of society. There are holy books about the teapot.

I still don't understand why your faith is different than the faith in the teapot. If you are going to say that your faith is based on "historical fact" then how would this be different than the stories "handed down for generations" in the teapot analogy?

Stories don't inspire faith. Written history sometimes does though.

Are you saying that your faith is different because it's true?
How do you know it is true?

It's based on true history, not stories.

Also, twice now you have brought up torture. I do not see how this is relevent.

Can't leave out a major test of the virtue of faith, that many have experienced over the history of Christianity.

But you mention personal knowledge. Can you explain that?

I meant that group belief, tradition, is useless. Many people grow up performing the rituals and reciting the creeds of religion without fully comprehending, let alone believing, them. The belief has to be arrived at individually and personally.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 1:51 PM Chief Infidel has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 16041
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 44 of 294 (334579)
07-23-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Chief Infidel
07-23-2006 5:51 PM


This goes to the heart of my question. Why is it a virtue to base beliefs with life and death implications on something other than empirical evidence?

Good historical evidence has just as much weight as empirical evidence, and in this case there is a LOT of empirical evidence reported in the history; and NOT to believe the honest people who reported it is an act of bad faith and dishonesty and maybe even character assassination.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 5:51 PM Chief Infidel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 1085 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 294 (334607)
07-23-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
07-23-2006 6:14 PM


quote:
and NOT to believe the honest people who reported it is an act of bad faith and dishonesty and maybe even character assassination.

What people?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 6:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 7:19 PM nator has responded

    
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