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Author | Topic: Does Atheism = No beliefs? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Stile writes:
But we do find Santa Claus. We find him so ubiquitously that the only rational position is to by a polysantaclausist.
If we have reports on where something should be, how it should act... and we check those places and the consequences we should find, and nothing is ever found... over and over and over...
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I think it is rational to say we have no evidence of such a thing. But I don't think I can know there is no supernatural. I have no knowledge there is not a god. I do have knowledge that there is no evidence for such a thing.
Semantics? Hair splitting? Maybe. As for Santa Claus we can look at the literary and historical record to show its origins. So that is direct knowledge we have. Also, we know he does not visit our houses on Christmas.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Theodoric writes: Semantics? Hair splitting? Maybe. Yeah, on second thought, that's probably all my point comes down to.Agreed upon definitions of "knowledge" and "rational" and such would probably clear it all up just fine. As for Santa Claus we can look at the literary and historical record to show its origins. So that is direct knowledge we have. Also, we know he does not visit our houses on Christmas. Agreed.I would also say we have the same sort of direct evidence for God. Possibly not a document from someone saying "I made God up.." But if that's the only sticking point between rationally knowing something exists or not... then I think it's on fairly shaky ground anyway. If anyone cares to follow up on this line of thinking, this would probably be a better place to do such so as to not go too far off topic here.Also, I love to shamelessly plug any thread I started in the past I Know That God Does Not Exist
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Stile writes: With Santa Claus, we have a likely location on earth. You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is. If it's not rational to say you "know there is no god..." is it ever rational to say you "know there is no Santa Claus...?"Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Phat writes:
quote: Why? That is, why isn't "here" good enough? Instead, all you need is a sufficiently complete definition of what you mean by "god." When your definition is so vague that it doesn't actually say anything, then can it even be said to exist? But with regard to the North Pole and Santa, it's called "magic." That's the same claim that every theist has ever claimed regarding their god as to why it can't be detected where it is claimed to exist. So if that's not acceptable with regard to Santa, why does it suddenly become legitimate for god?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets take this line of thought over to Stiles old thread.
Message 75 Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: With Santa Claus, we have a likely location on earth. You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is. Right. Santa Claus used to have a physical location.Then we looked there, and there was no Santa Claus. God used to have a physical location.Then we looked there, and there was no God. You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is. Read that carefully. Now apply the idea to what some are trying to say about where God is now.How can they know that something or someone is there until they can establish where there is? Obviously, if someone is claiming that God exists... just "everywhere" or "you can't detect Him" or something like that... how are they making that claim? They aren't.Or, at least, we know they're not making such a claim rationally. quote: What good is "being rational" if you can't be rational enough to say you know there is no Santa Claus?Just be honest with yourself. If you don't want to be rational... then don't be rational. Just don't lie to yourself about it as that causes other internal issues and unhappiness that will be much more difficult to overcome (examples of the pitfalls of such things are evident all over these forums...) So God isn't any more rational than Santa Claus. Who cares? Do you think God cares, if He exists?If He did, wouldn't that make Him sensitive, immature and unworthy? If you see the upsides and positives about being rational in certain situations... then use the power of rationality in those situations. But if you try to re-define the idea of rationality so that you can feel like you're getting those upsides and positives in a situation where they just don't apply... you're only fooling yourself. And then you diminish the power of "real" rationality even when used where you used to enjoy it. ...because you'll "know" (because you taught it to yourself) that "rationality" isn't all that great anyway... it can't even help you find God. Well, duh.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: Where praytell was this location whence you speak? God used to have a physical location.Then we looked there, and there was no God. Unless you are talking about Jesus... and the jury is out on whether or not He will return to his prior location...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: Where praytell was this location whence you speak? I thought most Christians were aware of the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctum where God was said to dwell. Holy of Holies - Wikipedia
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not quite right. In it was said to be a Presence of God, often a Female aspect of God and the Shekhinah is not really a Christian tradition or Biblical but certainly a useful challenge when playing Rabbinical Trivia.
I haven't won as many drinks with it as with the "Name the most Northern, Eastern, Western and Southern US States" challenge but it has paid its way. Edited by jar, : needed an n
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: Where praytell was this location whence you speak? Heaven. In the clouds.Turns out there are no gods there. Granted, it was a long time ago... but does that make it better or worse? The point, regardless, is that people give Santa and God descriptions that can be tested in reality. Some might be physical locations.Some might be controlling certain weather. Some might be helping this or that situation in reality. In all cases where things can be checked, though... it comes down to the same answer. No Santa, and No God. That leaves us with all the cases where things can't be checked.Which leaves us with the problem of "rationality." If it can't be checked... what's the rational reason to think Santa or God is there in the first place?Other than, of course, that certain people want Santa or God to be somewhere... anywhere... and those are the only places left. Not very rational for the idea of figuring out if they exist or not.But, very helpful for the idea of holding onto a personally-desired story that doesn't seem to have any anchor in reality.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
To all you Philosophical types. I am a radical, militant atheist and I don't think that I would ever be tempted to put my male sex organ into the cloaca of Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. I don't even have chimney at home . Does that count as a belief or a non-belief?
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Pressie writes: Does that count as a belief or a non-belief? "I don't know what's going on."-The Cure
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Pressie writes: To all you Philosophical types. I am a radical, militant atheist and I don't think that I would ever be tempted to put my male sex organ into the cloaca of Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. I don't even have chimney at home . Does that count as a belief or a non-belief?
If you read that quote with a strong Russian accent, it sounds awesome.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: We've done this to death in another thread so I'll just say this: agnostic is an anachronism that has had no sensible meaning since the enlightenment. We now accept that no-one actually knows whether there's a god or not. RAZD calls himself a deist and an agnostic, ringo says there's no god but isn't an atheist he's agnostic. I say I'm an atheist but I know that the non-existence of god can't be proven so I too am an agnostic. Agnosticism is defunct as a concept. Ringo and I are atheists and RAZD believes in god/s I'll say no more. Probably. Just a quick question. What would you call someone who believes that there probably is an intelligent cause for our existence, but does not adhere to any specific religion, or even any particular belief in the nature of that intelligence? He isn't really theistic because he doesn't necessarily believe that this intelligence is at all involved with the world now, he isn't really a deist because he acknowledges that possibly he/she/it could be involved and he isn't an atheist either. Wouldn't agnostic fit that person better than any other term. I suggest that there is a lot of people who fall into that category.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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