Evolution Disproven.

OMG, ok RvX, I hope someone assasinates Kent Hovind for all the brain-washing he has put you through. I am a YEC and I am intelligable enough to pass off this post as complete and utter idiocy and/or luticrus logic [No pun intended]. I understand that you have a seriously major lack in the ToE, so bare with me on my slightly hostile word usage. I think you are in great need of an antidote, stick around here and you may be cured, as well as some apetizers may do well. A elementary biology text book may suit you well. I have two recommendations:Biology - The web of life; Strauss & Lisowski
Biology - Concets & Connections - Second Edition; Campbell et al.--Regarding the Hovind Parroting:
"Also, some more stuff... Uranus and Venus (I'm pretty sure it's those) are moving in retrograde motion... how could this happen? A "big bang" would make everything rotate/spin the same way..."
--Basic lessons in astronomy will deliver you the conventional theories on the origin of planet orbits and rotation sequences. A quick overview of the mainstream Nebula hypothesis will evidently show you that this observation is no surprise. The Big Bang theory has absolutely nothing to do with Uranus and venus."Charles Darwin even admitted that he was randomly throwing out theories and that evolution "could not be true..."
--OMG, someone else help him with this one.--Sorry if reality hurts too much, but you have to stay away from that Hovind/Wyatt/Brown material, it really irritates and turns science into political propaganda and brain-washing tactics.My thoughts on Kent Hovind:
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=11&t=17&p=11
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=11&t=17&p=12post 158 sets the stage well.------------------

"#1 What are TOE and YEC... sorry, not familiar with these terms, lol..."
--As compmage pointed out, the ToE is an abbreviation for the Theory of Evolution, and a YEC is a Young Earth Creationist. As well as an OEC is an Old Earth Creationist, a.k.a. a Theistic Evolutionist."#2 Retrograde motion has everything to do with the Big Bang. In the "Big Bang," everything went spinning in the same direction. This proves that wrong."
--Again, the Big Bang has nothing to do with the rotational patterns of planets or anything else. To make your assertion seem at least slightly logical (even though it is still an illogical question), you may be searching for the origin of the solar system, rather than the origin of the universe. So instead of the Big Bang theory, you'll be looking at the Nebula hypothesis. Even still, retrograde 'rotation' is well explained by this theory.
--In conventional mainstream theory on planet formation, planetismals (proto-planets) formed by colliding and condensing with surrounding materials. With the cataclysmic alterations in orbit and rotation patterns of masses, retrograde rotation comes at no surprise.
--BTW, as Joz pointed out, You are incorrect in saying that it is 'retrograde rotation', you (as well as Kent Hovind?) may be looking for retrograde 'rotation'. Vocabulary is very important in scientific study, though some slack is usually given in the forums. Hovind of course runs right over that fine line.--Here is a good example of retrograde 'motion'
Planets occasionally stop their eastward drift through the stars and for a brief period shift westward, undergoing retrograde motion. This "backward" drift is caused by the Earth passing the planet and does not mean the planet has reversed its orbital motion^[1]. - Recreated - pg. 19; Fig 0V1.10This normal drift of the planets may sometimes reverse, so that a given planet shifts westward through the constelations. This is not the result of the planet changing its direction in its orbit; rather, it is caused by the Earth's motion. Just as a car may breifly look like it is moving backward when you pass it, so too a planet appears to reverse its direction as the Earth swings by it in our yearly journey around the Sun.¹--As well as Uranus, Venus, & Pluto are examples of retrograde rotation.Rotational axis of planets:
-Inner planets
Mercury 0^o
Venus 177.4^o
Earth 23.5^o
Mars 25.2^o-Outer Planets
Jupiter 3.1^o
Saturn 26.7^o
Uranus 97.9^o
Naptune 28.3^o
Pluto 122.5^o--Some suggested introductory studies for the astronomical field:
-[1] - Explorations - An introduction to Astronomy. Second Edition, 2000 Update; Thomas T. Arny--For the Mathematically minded:-[2] - White Dwarfs Black holes - An Introduction to Relativistic Astrophysics; Roman & Hannelore Sexl"#3 What's wrong with Kent Hovind? OK, maybe his theory may and may not be correct, but he sure does know what he's talking about... "
--That's just it, he doesn't know what he is talking about. Either that or you have a couple choices: Extreme Arrogance, Ignorance, abundant ill-informities, misunderstanding, misrepresentation, or deceit. You could argue for all of them, I'm sure, pick your fill.
--Hovind is actually the person who got me into the EvC debate, I did however find more and more reason to see him as an arrogant ill-informed parroter. Keep your thoughts on the science and have an open mind and you may see this as well. You are looking for veracity right?"I didn't use much from Kent Hovind anyway, basically just the retrograde motion point..."
--Believe me, Hovind would most likely defend you for all of them, they are also in his 'seminars'."TrueCreation: do you believe in Theistic Evolution or something?"
--No, I am a Young Earth Creationist."And guys, doesn't it really put you down to be this rude and insulting to a new member of this forum? Just be cool and tell me what's wrong... thanks."
--Sorry about the hostility, it just irritates me how Hovind and his ilk brain-wash his followers and plagueing the YEC community in corrupting their logic. You may yet come to this realization.------------------

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-06-2002]

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-06-2002]

"K... this really is laughable, it's just so funny to see how you guys actually believe this lie (evolution)"
--It isn't 'laughable', it is enjoyable to discuss and compile a model for the history of the earth and the universe. The ToE is just one theory which happens to be the dominantly accepted theory for biological evolution in the scientific community (referred to as the conventional view or the mainstream science). It is not that I find Evolution a 'stupid theory' as you and Hovind may, I simply disagree that it is and was the mechanism which has [driven] our universe."1. I made a big mistake by saying "living organism." What I meant to say is, "No species can become superior to itself."
Ex: A dog can't make or become a human... etc, you get the point..."
--You give no limitation, nor refute a mechanism which is applied to the progression in development of a population genetically. After listening to all those Hovind tapes/DVD's and what-not, I'm sure your going to flop all around his misuse of macro/micro evolutionary development."2. Do you really think that an extremely small dot of nothing exploded and created all this intelligence, this whole universe? I mean, think about it!
--Yes, there is more than enough people thinking about it, much more in-depth and detailed than you or Hovind may wish to imagine or want to see. Though see above, I do not agree with it as what actually brought about space, time, and matter, and neither may many others in this forum despite their Evolutionary belief.
--Also, despite its name, the 'big bang', does not necessarily imply an 'explosion', I must still urge you to refer to the astronomy texts which I cited in my last post. Or do a search on the internet for links on the big bang and inflation theory."3. There is nothing wrong with Kent Hovind... fake PHD? Gimme a break.. just cause he's smart doesn't mean you evolutionists can insult him..."
--Believe me, there is serious problems with Kent Hovind, keep iterating/parroting his arguments and you may see why. Also, Kent Hovind himself admitted that his Ph.D was not from an accredited university. Patriot university is labeled as a Diploma mill."4. Evolution is a hypothesis, NOT the theory they claim it to be."
--The ToE (emphesis on the 'T') has been tried and tested, while through its flexibility, it has endured numerous experimentations and observation shows its effects successfully predictable by the theory. The hypothesis quickly graduates to giving it the stamp of it being a theory after you look over these details.". An evolutionist (I believe his last name was Haecker or something) made a big book about evolution, years ago... he was showing the similarities of different species by their embryos... it turns out he actually faked the pics of the embryos... he finally figured out how idiotic evolution is."
--Good for him. And its significance?"6. Do you really believe that we came from something so small and dumb to something so big and intelligent? I mean, come on guys, you have brains, think about it... evolution CAN NOT be true, and is not true."
--Why should anyone in this forum take you seriously in the least with your extreme and tedious lack in detail, logic, or reason? Again, you have been brainwashed."7. Charles Darwin admitted this about his evolution hypothesis... I read about it in some book, can't remember its name..."
--Can't remember its name, I know don't you just hate it when that happens. Gosh darndit!"8. If you get the Philadelphia Trumpet, read their article of the EVOLUTION OF FRAUD... it just came out."
--I don't think I'm going to take the time to read it, if you really wish, take the time and post a quote. Otherwise, I feel you have just parroted the included dogma all over this board."9. There is evidence of a huge catastrophe (the Flood).. for example, there are fish in places where water has never flowed... there is real evidence of this."
--My goodness, please don't touch the Flood, while I do believe and people here have acknowledge the existence of evidence for the flood (however they still see the evidence against and/or lack in evidence for some observations which I may or may not be able to argue or have addressed yet) if you start arguing the Global Flood on this board, I'm afraid that you will turn it into a spoiled bowl of rotten geology. When you have read some earth science/geology related text books come back and I would be happy to argue with you. Hovinds propaganda will only make you look like a fool here."10. How dare you compare God with earthly things? Duh, thats why he's called God... of course he can create anything from nothing... thus the name God!"
--Whatever you say sir! :\"Evolution = Trash."
--Evolution = Entertaining scientific study"FINALLY: it is a huge mistake to even call evolution science. It is neither observable or reproducabe (or recreatable, whatever )"
--Please stick around. Evolution, as it predicts, will suffice the desired observation again and again. Speciation is highly observable. And its cause, mutation. If your going to argue that 'no new information can come about!', you may want to refer to the biology text I cited in my first post here.Wow, that was easy "Thanks."
--Your welcome------------------

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-08-2002]

"Ok, I'm really disgusted, I can't believe what the world has come to..."
--Neither can I! (Hovind needs a spanking)"*No offense to anyone, just the truth*"
--When it comes..when it comes..."It's mainly filled with a bunch of ignorant, insulting evolutionists who haven't even thought of how impossible evolution is and just continue to slag any newcomers... pssh, how nice of you..."
--I'm not an Evo and I can get it through my head, I wasn't brainwashed, I looked at the data, I didn't ignore it."There's too many things to quote and reply to here, and it's not going to get anywhere, because you evolutionists will just continue to deny and deny the truth... you have been brainwashed too much to realize the truth."
--Some replies would do you very well, I at least hope your reading what people are giving you too? Schraftinator supplied some links. And, you have given no logic or reason for our being brainwashed, you have supplied us with No, Zippo, nada information or data."I have already provided the proof for you... evolution has been disproven..."
--It was refuted right before your very eyes RvX, if you want to tell us specifically how this is not so, pick one of your arguments and argue against the refutations. I think you have a great misunderstanding of how science is done also."I care nothing of what your opinion of me is... you can call me a "little-leaguer" all you want, because I'm a new poster here or whatever... and I don't really care... what matters is if you understand true science or not."
--Thats why we called you a 'little leaguer', because you do not yet understand science. Your just randomly throwing crazy and wild arguments all over the floor to be refuted which you then ignore or plan to ignore."Did you observe evolution or the Big Bang happen? Is it recreatable?
NO! Thats all I need to know... it's not science, it's just a bunch of lies compiled together."
--Just to tell you just because something isn't reproducible, doesn't mean it isn't science. You might want to throw our bible right out the window then! Or our flood I work to critique. By the way, Evolution is observable, as it predicts (Evolution doesn't predict that dogs will birth humans in a single generation...not to mention that Evolution does not have a decided direction of development, nor does it say that dogs or humans are directly ancestral. It does however say that they are related)"Tell me... if "apes evolved to humans", why are there apes still left?"
--OMG!!!!!!!! Doctors, we are in great need for some major brain surgery here.
--Please, let me ask you, do you seriously believe this Hovind stuff? Because you should realize that this obviously indicates that he has no clue what he is talking about, or you need to read some text books. You have the highest degree of a misunderstanding of evolution you can possibly have. And I think you are ignoring the antidote."Really... this is pretty sick... I just cannot believe what the world has come to... rejecting God and developing a bunch of lies to explain how the world was created."
--See above, you have the highest degree of misunderstanding of the ToE you can possibly have. The theory of evolution has absolutely nothing to say about the existence of God, let alone which God. I thought you realized the concept of a 'theistic evolutionist'.------------------

Their talk on Evolution may be credible, though I wouldn't recommend the Flood Geology arguments, it reaks with Hovinds 'Evo' twin arguments. ------------------

"Ok guys just answer something for me...Why do you hate Kent Hovind so much?"
--Hate is such a strong word. I would rather say it is 'sad', he may be described as a little selfish helpless puppy dog. Everyone loves him because all they see is his 'charm' and his eloquent style of debate and tactics. To someone who has not taken the fields of science seriously you would be to say that that guy is brilliant (I could name numerous examples I personally know). Either he is deceiving himself by his own ignorance and arrogance, or he is deliberately deceiving all of his ilk. As you have seen through all of our posts in response to this Hovind-parroting, his arguments are nothing short of straw-men, unfounded, ludicrous, un-scientific hog-wash. While you do not respond, you have at least been reading our responses I surely hope. And taking a bit of time and reading the links supplied to you will also be of much assistance. As I said before he himself admits that he received his degree from an un-accredited university (labeled as a degree-mill). If I had the time, I would draw him in a paleontology classroom with his face flat on his desk with a bunch of Z's floating from his head, because he obviously either never paid attention or was never even involved with such a class for scientific study. You have seen time and time again through these numerous posts that his arguments are just this, and you may wonder why so many Evo's in the EvC debate get so anti-Creationist and hostile rather than discussing the science, because of people like Hovind. Luckily, we regularly have intelligible scientific discussion from both sides here. Stick around and respond to posts, exchange ideas, acknowledge your mistakes and the mistakes of others material you may iterate and you may do fine. Until then, your posts will be filled with ignorant biased rhetoric, basically unworthy of commentation. You should feel lucky that we attempt to correct you in the hopes that you will understand or read them with an open mind. Just a couple more of my pennies"Stop attacking him for what college he went to (ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?"
--See above, his arguments are unfounded and un-scientific. Believe me, if you do have any interest in science then discuss the science and read the mainstream material with an open mind in knowing the fact that the data has been interpreted. If you wish not to do this, science is not the field for you, nor is this forum, as well as you should be silent unless you wish to degrade the stance of the conventional YEC any further than many see it because of this type of iteration which is not suitable to be discussed as science.--If I may introduce to you a reliable phrase which I conjured up some time ago after I started using that brain which I believe that God has given me, you may want to see its merit and take it into consideration:"Unbiased scientific inquiry is the basis of true knowledge and understanding. In deposition of my vernality, I should not be underestimated."------------------

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-07-2002]

"One of my favorite Hovind quotes is from his "dissertation", "We don't know how many stars there are in the Solar System...." "
--ROFLMAO!!! --We may have to take a gander at his elementary and Jr. High level credibility as well. Tisk, tisk, tisk..------------------

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-08-2002]

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-08-2002]

Done already RvX? Your only deluding yourself if your going around all the chartrooms and forums you can until you get a favor on your arguments.--[Added by edit]This may be one of them scenarios in which there is a need for a creationist only forum section, a bit of unbrain-washing is sometimes needed.------------------

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-11-2002]