Evolution Disproven.

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Originally posted by Philip:
--Hey, evo's; RvX's logic is a bit comical, but his conscience is right, and you know it!

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Passing on lies and misquotes (ala that lying sack of fecal matter Hovind) is not good conscience in my opinion.

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--You evo's are 'played' by subconscious forces you don't understand: Like ‘frolic’, ‘research grants’, ‘arrogance’ and/or ‘power’ (even as YECs like myself are equally guilty of). Face it or defraud the public. All of us are guilty of scientifically theorizing the impossible, period! That’s why we ‘discuss’.

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Philip, while trying not to be rude I have to say that after I read your "fallen theory' I came to the conclusion that you really do not have much knowledge as to what constitutes a theory in the scientific sense. Evolution, the fact, and evolution the theory are more than possible, despite your claims to the contrary. Every day more info becomes available that supports this view. Oh, and I do not apply for research grants (I am in industry), I have precious little time to frolic and I get no power from this debate. Sorry.

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--I hear a mutationalist scorn: human’s don’t have a ‘heart’, let alone a ‘soul’, ‘mind’, or ‘power’ because such and such aren’t measurable empirically? Go tell that to our own children (if we haven’t aborted them all)!

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Philip, I strongly suggest that you back up.

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--Someone here just stated that man’s APERCEPTIVE ‘mind’ and ‘affections’ evolved from slime! -- That’s fraud in all cultures but an evo’s, and its cursing our nation’s integrity. We indeed state the impossible when we state these 2 supernatural aperceptive phenomenons evolved.

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Prove your assertion of fraud.

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Hear him out. He’s right in his own conscience. Encourage his scheme. Have you ever converted a YEC to the ToE? Has a YEC ever converted an Evo? Conversions are rare. Both camps have innumerable serious gaps in their ‘science’ discussions. Why do we want to convert or sooth our own consciences anyway? (Hint: see ‘subconscious forces you don’t understand’, above)

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I do not think that conversions are likely what I am aiming at, who might be a better term, are the people who are looking for the data to make up their own minds. I try to help provide that data. As to my conscience, that is not involved here for me other than to provide a better society for my child. One based both on knowledge and honor.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

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Originally posted by RvX:
*No offense to anyone, just the truth*
It's mainly filled with a bunch of ignorant, insulting evolutionists who haven't even thought of how impossible evolution is and just continue to slag any newcomers... pssh, how nice of you...

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Actually they originally just slaged your statements. I do not think that they went after you until your responses.

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I have already provided the proof for you... evolution has been disproven...

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Actually you have provided nothing that has not already been seen and easily refuted. There are many, and far better, arguements than the ones which you have stated and while I disagree with all of them I have to respect some of their positions.As the arguements against your statements on this board are extensive I will not repeat them. However, your misstatement of the second law of thermodynamics was largely glossed over and I would like to expand on it as it is one that generally pisses me off due to its extreme dishonesty.Most of these pieces of info on thermo were drawn from Atkins "Physical Chemistry" as it is the source that I am most familiar with. Your statement concerning order is based on a misapplication of the Second Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT) which says
"No process is possible in which the sole result is the absorption of heat from a reservoir and its conversion to work" which has also been restated as
"The entropy of an isolated system increases during any natural process"
Now, this says nothing about energy and entropy flows within the system. Here is a true fact for you, the entropy in a system which INCUDES evolving organisms will increase. Let's look at a simple example of one organism. Many of the proteins in your body contain sulfer bridges resulting from cysteine forming cystine, these sulfer bridges help to stabilize proteins. The formation of the cystine has an entropy change of -60J K^-1 mol^-1, a NEGATIVE entropy. The reaction is driven by the enthalpy an -22000 J K^-1 mol^-1 for a total energy change of -4120 J K^-1 mol^-1 (number from Changs "Physical Chemistry with Applications to Biological Systems", negative means a forward reaction). A simple way of looking at it was that heat was dissipated into the system, increasing the system entropy (heat is a very disordered form of entropy) while allowing for a localized entropy decrease in the cystine bond. Evolution, and life, works
the same way; by locally decreasing entropy while increasing the entropy of the system (the overall environment) generally by the release of heat or other high entropy waste products. Actually work by Wiken et al. indicates that many aspects of abiogenesis (different from evolution) also work via the same reversible entropic processes. FYI the area of thermo is called reversible thermodynamics and the definition of entropy within the system is often called the Clausius inequality in case you want to look it up on your own.

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what matters is if you understand true science or not.

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having been doing science for about 20 years now I think that I am beggining to get a grasp on how it works. Recently I have started looking into he philosophical underpinnings of science (as all human endevors have philosophical underpinnings to them, even religion).

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Evolution is NOT science.

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Not according to every definition of science that I have exmined.

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Did you observe evolution or the Big Bang happen?

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You have never observed gravity, yet I am sure that you think that it exists. Now, I am pretty sure that I know what your response will be and it is going to make my point for me.Well, I am back to the lab to try to define some really irritating problems , have a good day all .------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

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[This message has been edited by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, 06-07-2002]

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Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
The first thing you need to do is read some good material:

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Actually I would have recommended
http://switch.to/evolution it actually has links to both.By the way Cobra, if you have time please read my earlier post to RxV. It contains some info concerning 2LOT and evolution that you may find interesting.Arghhhhh, my %^*@ timer just went off, back to the lab ------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RvX:
8. If you get the Philadelphia Trumpet, read their article of the EVOLUTION OF FRAUD... it just came out.Here is a quote from the article in the paper that you cite.
"Duane T. Gish, Ph.D., in his book Evolution: The Fossils Still Say NO!, states, Even though this transition is supposed to have taken 100 million years, not a single intermediate [fossil] has ever been discovered.
While I will leave aside the documented number of times that Gish has been caught misrepresenting the words of scientists the above statement is flat out wrong. There are scores, here are a few references to get you started.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/therapsd.htm
http://biology.semo.edu/courses/bi120/stdygd20.html
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/benton2.html
http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/evol/miscon.shtmlBut then, Gish has been spinning tall tales for quite some time anyway .------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

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Originally posted by RvX:
Ok guys just answer something for me...

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Why do you hate Kent Hovind so much?

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Stop attacking him for what college he went to (ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?

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I hold people such as Hovind and Gary Bauer more in contempt. They are dishonerable little liars who claim credentials that they did not earn and misstate others opinions and flat out lie (some of the footprints in some Bauers exhbits appear to have been made from casts). The only skill which Hovind posseses is that of misdirectional debate. Debunking the lies and garbage spread by people such as this is, well Shakespeare said it best in a line from Henry to the King of France.
"This is my mission, my charge and my message."
Quote borrowed from Henry the Fifth.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

[QUOTE]Originally posted by compmage:Who knows, maybe one day everyone will see the light and become evolutionists if only we try baby steps [/B][/QUOTE]Oh Man! that is no fun. Wouldn't you rather do an experiment that takes you from A to Z, from Alpha to Omega in one giant leap .Actually having done more than a few of those while the return can be great the odds of success are very, very small.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz