What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?

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However, Deuteronomy indicates that the people were commanded to worship no image. God was and is a Spirit.

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That's nice, but religious thought didn't start with the Jews.Judaism is derivative of the religions that came before it.

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In other words, worship the Spirit and not the universe, the technology, other "attractive" people such as movie stars...etc..Early religion was an idea of philosophy.

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Right, but it began long, long before Judaism.

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True enough that religion has been abused. I see human tendencies as proof of a fallen inner nature that no amount of evolution will ever fix.

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OK.

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As for science and philosophy without religion, look at Nazi Germany to see the fruits of THAT logic. IMHO, anyway.

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There was lots and lots of religion in Nazi Germany. It was a cult of personality for one thing, and Hitler invoked God all the time. He claimed to be ding God's work with the Final Solution.If you really want to look at history, we can look at all of the damage that religion without science has done, and continues to do. Think of the Taliban.

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Just as ancients in the jungle knew all about pharmacology by simply knowing which plants to use without being able to explain it

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...and science is now often able to explain what they could not.Sometimes they believed that the tree root or berry was imbued with a spirit and that is why it healed them.Are they right?When science isolates the chemical compound in the root or berry that heals, what does it mean to the belief of the people who thought it was a spirit?

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So it is with spiritual encounters with God being passed down through oral tradition without need of quantification, Quantum Physics, mysticism, or any other of mans feeble attempts to intellectualize a spiritual experience.

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So, the fact that we figured out that the sun is a star and not Apollo's firey chariot is one of "man's feeble attempts to intellectualize a spiritual experience"?Is the fact that we figured out that germs cause disease, not evil spirits, was another of "man's feeble attempts to intellectualize a spiritual experience"?

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For some, Belief works.

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Works to do what?

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Whether from an internal reinforcement or an external impartation, science has as yet been unable to quantify what is certainly more than just daydreams and fantasies.

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Why is it "certainly more".Do you believe in the Norse or the roman pantheon of gods? What about the hundreds of Hindu gods? No? Don't you consider them to be pretty much "daydreams and fantasies", even though the people who did and do belive in them are just as sure in their beliefs as you are about yours?

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I am not saying that the fundamentalists actually are right, but given the wide scope of the types of personalities and individuals who DO believe, and given the fact that religious experiences STILL gather followers, there must be a biological need for a Creator.

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I think there is a biological predisposition to believe in the supernatural, yes.

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genocide can't possibly be an evolutionary positive

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It is for the group that wins.They get more resources for themselves where they had to share before.More resources usually = greater reproductive success.

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There is a big difference between simply "professing" Christianity as a political angle and actually being a Christian leader. Here in America, the last real Christian president was Jimmy Carter! IMHO.

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You are now just engaging in what every new generation of Christians (or any other religion) does."Those people who called themselves Christians in the past? The ones who did things or held views that were considered quite normal and justified back then but we now consider racist, sexist, or otherwise offesnsive and oppressive?They were not true Christians."Well, phat, that is just you trying to distance yourself from the realities of your own religious history.The KKK is a Christian white supremacist group that once counted it's US membership in the multi-millions back in the 1920's. It was a mainstream organization because it was normal to hate jews, blacks, Roman Catholics, and immigrants. Two US presidents, Harry Truman and Warren Harding were closely tied with the Klan.Now, you may now say that these people were not Christian, but the point is that, in their minds, they were. All of those millions of people who were members, and the many millions more who supported those views considered themselves good, Christian people supporting Christian values.Why is it then so unreasonable to think that Hitler and the Nazis didn't fully believe that they were good Christians, doing God's work?They were all "true" Christians, phat. It's just that the definition of what you consider a "good" Christian has changed along with the greater societal norms.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 07:38 AM

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My conclusion goes in line with some who prophesy that in the last days, man will attempt to deify Self and do away with organized religion. This aura of fake world peace will bring about the next Hitler and people such as Christians will be persecuted for believing in such "humanist hindering" doctorines.

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You know, I was watching C-Span a little while back when the man who was challenging the constitutionality of the phrase "under God" that was added to the pledge to the flag. He happened to be an Atheist.I bring this up because of your implication that Christians will be persecuted for their "humanist hindering" doctrines.Well, there was of course a call-in part to the show, and you should have heard the virulent, persecutorial hate pouring out onto this man from all of those good Christians. They told him that if he didn't like Christianity, he should get out of America. They told him that, as an Athiest, he didn't have the right to speak in America. They told him that he was going to burn in hell.Now, tell me who is the persecuted class here?My signature is more apt today than ever.

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"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson

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and I would agree that most religions are sexist, but I don't see where that could lead to any added evolutionary benefit.

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If you control the female, you control who impregnates her, and therefore who's genes get passed on.Thus, the harem....and the double standard regarding promiscuity.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 07:57 AM

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to be "in tune" with the spirit.So, you have special, insider knowledge that nobody else has and this gives you the special ability to judge who is a "true" Christian or not.That is SUCH a copout, phat.That's exactly what all Christians say when trying to distance themselves from the more unsavory aspects of Christianity's history say.

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Absolute Truth supercedes societal norms.

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How so?Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms.

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Yes. Sadly, many who profess Christianity are worse than unbelievers.

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Worse than unbelievers?Since when do unbelievers go out of their way to gang up on believers and tell them they should get out of the country, or they have no right to speak?Where do you hear about Athiest groups trying to stop believers from doing anything, as long as it doesn't infringe upon others' rights?

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How can I explain God?

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I don't know.You said that it "Ultimate Truth" exceeded cultural norms.If you can't explain what this Truth is, then how can I judge if it exceeds cultural norms or not?

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You will just say that He is a product of my imagination.

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MAybe. It depends upon what you say. Mostly I want to know how, specifically, "Ultimate Truth" exceeds cultural norms.

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Perhaps you feel that everything that we imagine or choose to imagine defines our belief.

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That is part of what defines our belief.

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If an atheist does not "choose" to imagine God..then...POOF...there is no God!

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As an Agnostic, I do not hold that belief.I don't know if there is a God or not. I have never seen nor experienced any evidence that would lead me to a belief in the supernatural, but that does not mean the supernatural cannot or does not exost, only that I can't tell if it does or not.

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There are things that exist outside of your imagination.

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Sure.

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Outside of your comprehension.

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Of course.

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You would prefer to let in only that which is comforting and challenging to you.

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Isn't that true of every person?

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You have rejected religion, in part, because of the way that it has been perceived by you.

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...and others accept religion, in part, because of the way that it has been perceived by them.

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this gives you the special ability to judge who is a "true" Christian or not.

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This what? What is "it" ?

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Your "knowledge" of "Ultimate Truth" gives you the ability to judge who is a Chriatian and who isnt, right? Isn't that how you said you knew that those millions of KKK supporters and members weren't "real" christians? [quote]That's exactly what all Christians say when trying to distance themselves from the more unsavory aspects of Christianity's history[/qs]

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Not at all. We are trying to distance our Spirituality...the living Spirit...from human foible and mistakes. We ourselves are no better than you or anyone else. From your perspective, however, our God is but a product of our minds. So I cannot explain or prove anything to you.

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Look, my point is that you are not in a position to decide who is a Christian and who isn't. Each individual who calls themselves Christian, who says that they believe that Jesus is the son of God and died for their sins, is a Christian, even if they were a member of the KKK, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, Operation Rescue, or any other violent or oppressive group or era in the history of Chritianity.Those Moslems who flew the planes in to the WTC are real Moslems. They believed thay were doing the work of Allah. They are very poor representatives of their religion, however.

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Absolute Truth supercedes societal norms.

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Because God exceeds humanity.

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How does God exceed humanity and societal norms.How is God manifested so that I understand how God exceeds societal norms?

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Again, I can only show you myself. I can not show you God.

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Then you cannot show me how God exceeds societal norms, but you assure me that he does.Then your claim is empty.

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No. But I am suggesting that a believer should be taken seriously. It is our God who raises the standard.

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In what way does your God raise the standard?

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Just as you may see children as absolved of certain responsibilities because of their age, I see unbelievers as absolved of responsibility as well.

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How condescending.

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When I say that anyone who professes belief in an absolute greater than humanity and then abuses this belief by belittling others is worse...I mean worse. They profess belief in a greater standard. They are worse by spitting on their own standard.

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What standard is that? Is this standard one of the Ultimate Truths?

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My view maintains that God exists, and is a higher absolute than human wisdom.

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OK.How is this "higher absolute" useful if nobody can describe it?