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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Lam writes: Person A: What's fire? Person B: Um... uh... it must be beyond our comprehension. Person C: Hey, you're right. There must be a "supernatural being" of some sort to maintain the fire. Person A: Ok, let's all worship the fire "god". quote: That's nice, but religious thought didn't start with the Jews. Judaism is derivative of the religions that came before it.
quote: Right, but it began long, long before Judaism.
I was stating my opinion that religion has an advantage over science and philosophy because it is easy to swallow and it justifies a lot of prejudice and hate that people tend to have. quote: OK.
quote: There was lots and lots of religion in Nazi Germany. It was a cult of personality for one thing, and Hitler invoked God all the time. He claimed to be ding God's work with the Final Solution. If you really want to look at history, we can look at all of the damage that religion without science has done, and continues to do. Think of the Taliban.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ...and science is now often able to explain what they could not. Sometimes they believed that the tree root or berry was imbued with a spirit and that is why it healed them. Are they right? When science isolates the chemical compound in the root or berry that heals, what does it mean to the belief of the people who thought it was a spirit?
quote: So, the fact that we figured out that the sun is a star and not Apollo's firey chariot is one of "man's feeble attempts to intellectualize a spiritual experience"? Is the fact that we figured out that germs cause disease, not evil spirits, was another of "man's feeble attempts to intellectualize a spiritual experience"?
quote: Works to do what?
quote: Why is it "certainly more". Do you believe in the Norse or the roman pantheon of gods? What about the hundreds of Hindu gods? No? Don't you consider them to be pretty much "daydreams and fantasies", even though the people who did and do belive in them are just as sure in their beliefs as you are about yours?
quote: I think there is a biological predisposition to believe in the supernatural, yes.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It is for the group that wins. They get more resources for themselves where they had to share before. More resources usually = greater reproductive success.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You are now just engaging in what every new generation of Christians (or any other religion) does. "Those people who called themselves Christians in the past? The ones who did things or held views that were considered quite normal and justified back then but we now consider racist, sexist, or otherwise offesnsive and oppressive? They were not true Christians." Well, phat, that is just you trying to distance yourself from the realities of your own religious history. The KKK is a Christian white supremacist group that once counted it's US membership in the multi-millions back in the 1920's. It was a mainstream organization because it was normal to hate jews, blacks, Roman Catholics, and immigrants. Two US presidents, Harry Truman and Warren Harding were closely tied with the Klan. Now, you may now say that these people were not Christian, but the point is that, in their minds, they were. All of those millions of people who were members, and the many millions more who supported those views considered themselves good, Christian people supporting Christian values. Why is it then so unreasonable to think that Hitler and the Nazis didn't fully believe that they were good Christians, doing God's work? They were all "true" Christians, phat. It's just that the definition of what you consider a "good" Christian has changed along with the greater societal norms. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 07:38 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You know, I was watching C-Span a little while back when the man who was challenging the constitutionality of the phrase "under God" that was added to the pledge to the flag. He happened to be an Atheist. I bring this up because of your implication that Christians will be persecuted for their "humanist hindering" doctrines. Well, there was of course a call-in part to the show, and you should have heard the virulent, persecutorial hate pouring out onto this man from all of those good Christians. They told him that if he didn't like Christianity, he should get out of America. They told him that, as an Athiest, he didn't have the right to speak in America. They told him that he was going to burn in hell. Now, tell me who is the persecuted class here? My signature is more apt today than ever. "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If you control the female, you control who impregnates her, and therefore who's genes get passed on. Thus, the harem. ...and the double standard regarding promiscuity. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 07:57 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to be "in tune" with the spirit.
So, you have special, insider knowledge that nobody else has and this gives you the special ability to judge who is a "true" Christian or not. That is SUCH a copout, phat. That's exactly what all Christians say when trying to distance themselves from the more unsavory aspects of Christianity's history say.
quote: How so? Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Worse than unbelievers? Since when do unbelievers go out of their way to gang up on believers and tell them they should get out of the country, or they have no right to speak? Where do you hear about Athiest groups trying to stop believers from doing anything, as long as it doesn't infringe upon others' rights?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms. quote: I don't know. You said that it "Ultimate Truth" exceeded cultural norms. If you can't explain what this Truth is, then how can I judge if it exceeds cultural norms or not?
quote: MAybe. It depends upon what you say. Mostly I want to know how, specifically, "Ultimate Truth" exceeds cultural norms.
quote: That is part of what defines our belief.
quote: As an Agnostic, I do not hold that belief. I don't know if there is a God or not. I have never seen nor experienced any evidence that would lead me to a belief in the supernatural, but that does not mean the supernatural cannot or does not exost, only that I can't tell if it does or not.
quote: Sure.
quote: Of course.
quote: Isn't that true of every person?
quote: ...and others accept religion, in part, because of the way that it has been perceived by them.
quote: quote: Your "knowledge" of "Ultimate Truth" gives you the ability to judge who is a Chriatian and who isnt, right? Isn't that how you said you knew that those millions of KKK supporters and members weren't "real" christians?
[quote]That's exactly what all Christians say when trying to distance themselves from the more unsavory aspects of Christianity's history[/qs] quote: Look, my point is that you are not in a position to decide who is a Christian and who isn't. Each individual who calls themselves Christian, who says that they believe that Jesus is the son of God and died for their sins, is a Christian, even if they were a member of the KKK, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, Operation Rescue, or any other violent or oppressive group or era in the history of Chritianity. Those Moslems who flew the planes in to the WTC are real Moslems. They believed thay were doing the work of Allah. They are very poor representatives of their religion, however.
quote: How so? quote: How does God exceed humanity and societal norms. How is God manifested so that I understand how God exceeds societal norms?
Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms. quote: Then you cannot show me how God exceeds societal norms, but you assure me that he does. Then your claim is empty.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: In what way does your God raise the standard?
quote: How condescending.
quote: What standard is that? Is this standard one of the Ultimate Truths?
quote: OK. How is this "higher absolute" useful if nobody can describe it?
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