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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lam writes:
However, Deuteronomy indicates that the people were commanded to worship no image. God was and is a Spirit. Person A: What's fire?Person B: Um... uh... it must be beyond our comprehension. Person C: Hey, you're right. There must be a "supernatural being" of some sort to maintain the fire. Person A: Ok, let's all worship the fire "god". Deut 4:15-20=You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. In other words, worship the Spirit and not the universe, the technology, other "attractive" people such as movie stars...etc..Early religion was an idea of philosophy.I was stating my opinion that religion has an advantage over science and philosophy because it is easy to swallow and it justifies a lot of prejudice and hate that people tend to have. True enough that religion has been abused. I see human tendencies as proof of a fallen inner nature that no amount of evolution will ever fix. As for science and philosophy without religion, look at Nazi Germany to see the fruits of THAT logic. IMHO, anyway.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
robin writes: And think about this: The people of the past made YOU. What you know is what they found out.Just as ancients in the jungle knew all about pharmacology by simply knowing which plants to use without being able to explain it So it is with spiritual encounters with God being passed down through oral tradition without need of quantification, Quantum Physics, mysticism, or any other of mans feeble attempts to intellectualize a spiritual experience. For some, Belief works. Whether from an internal reinforcement or an external impartation, science has as yet been unable to quantify what is certainly more than just daydreams and fantasies. I am not saying that the fundamentalists actually are right, but given the wide scope of the types of personalities and individuals who DO believe, and given the fact that religious experiences STILL gather followers, there must be a biological need for a Creator. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-31-2004 23:40 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It is for the group that wins. The Nazi's hated Christianity, hated Gods chosen people the Jews, and often touted belief in survival of the fittest. The leaders had a great deal of pride and haughtyness. Yet they were NOT the group that won. The Atomic Bomb was made possible by some of the "inferior genetic" scientists whose people were hated and targeted. Clearly, the "survival of the fittest" appears to be survival of the chosen.
They get more resources for themselves where they had to share before.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If you really want to look at history, we can look at all of the damage that religion without science has done, and continues to do. Think of the Taliban. Of course I could not argue this with you as you see no absolute truth to spirituality. As a JudeoChristian monotheist, I have a different belief. To me, it is not "MY" belief. It is THE truth. I could never prove to you why many if not most people have followed the wrong path. I will be grouped in with the Taliban. My conclusion goes in line with some who prophesy that in the last days, man will attempt to deify Self and do away with organized religion. This aura of fake world peace will bring about the next Hitler and people such as Christians will be persecuted for believing in such "humanist hindering" doctorines.In the end, its all a matter of belief in humanity or belief in God. I DO agree that "religion" gets in the way. Spirituality, however, is another topic. (One Spirit or many?...or none?)
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: There is a big difference between simply "professing" Christianity as a political angle and actually being a Christian leader. Here in America, the last real Christian president was Jimmy Carter! IMHO.
Simply not true. The Nazis, including Hitler were Christians (specific quotes available to support that assertion if requested). They even maintained diplomatic connectioins with the Vatican throughout the war.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Schraf writes:
You are now just engaging in what every new generation of Christians (or any other religion) does. "Those people who called themselves Christians in the past? The ones who did things or held views that were considered quite normal and justified back then but we now consider racist, sexist, or otherwise offesnsive and oppressive? They were not true Christians." Well, phat, that is just you trying to distance yourself from the realities of your own religious history.Not at all. I am aware that humans always have been and will be imperfect. The KKK is a Christian white supremacist group that once counted it's US membership in the multi-millions back in the 1920's. It was a mainstream organization because it was normal to hate jews, blacks, Roman Catholics, and immigrants. Two US presidents, Harry Truman and Warren Harding were closely tied with the Klan. Now, you may now say that these people were not Christian, but the point is that, in their minds, they were. And I am saying that there is a reality beyond our minds. This truth is not relative! All of those millions of people who were members, and the many millions more who supported those views considered themselves good, Christian people supporting Christian values. Why is it then so unreasonable to think that Hitler and the Nazis didn't fully believe that they were good Christians, doing God's work?
Anyone in tune with the Spirit can plainly see why.
They were all "true" Christians, phat. According to your relative view? It's just that the definition of what you consider a "good" Christian has changed along with the greater societal norms.Absolute Truth supercedes societal norms.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Schraf writes: Yes. Sadly, many who profess Christianity are worse than unbelievers. I could chalk it up to an attack of spiritual warfare, which I will, but I also am not defending anything about organized religion and America. If Jesus were here today, in the flesh, He would NOT be an American.
Well, there was of course a call-in part to the show, and you should have heard the virulent, persecutorial hate pouring out onto this man from all of those good Christians. They told him that if he didn't like Christianity, he should get out of America. They told him that, as an Athiest, he didn't have the right to speak in America. They told him that he was going to burn in hell.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms. How can I explain God? You will just say that He is a product of my imagination. Perhaps you feel that everything that we imagine or choose to imagine defines our belief. If an atheist does not "choose" to imagine God..then...POOF...there is no God! There are things that exist outside of your imagination. Outside of your comprehension. You would prefer to let in only that which is comforting and challenging to you. You have rejected religion, in part, because of the way that it has been perceived by you.
this gives you the special ability to judge who is a "true" Christian or not. This what? What is "it" ?
That's exactly what all Christians say when trying to distance themselves from the more unsavory aspects of Christianity's history say. Not at all. We are trying to distance our Spirituality...the living Spirit...from human foible and mistakes. We ourselves are no better than you or anyone else. From your perspective, however, our God is but a product of our minds. So I cannot explain or prove anything to you.
quote: How so? Because God exceeds humanity. Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms. Again, I can only show you myself. I can not show you God. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-03-2005 06:35 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Brian writes: No. But I am suggesting that a believer should be taken seriously. It is our God who raises the standard. Just as you may see children as absolved of certain responsibilities because of their age, I see unbelievers as absolved of responsibility as well. When I say that anyone who professes belief in an absolute greater than humanity and then abuses this belief by belittling others is worse...I mean worse. They profess belief in a greater standard. They are worse by spitting on their own standard. You imply that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ is some sort of demon. My view maintains that God exists, and is a higher absolute than human wisdom.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are right, RAZD> As an administrator, I SHOULD know better! Thanks for being polite!
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
RAZD, is there an evolutionary advantage to belief?
Does it matter what belief is being professed?
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Irving Janis did lots of work in the area of group communication. Janis defines Groupthink as a "a quick and easy way to refer to a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action" (Janis 9). Janis further states that "Groupthink refers to a deterioration of mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment that results from in-group pressures" (Janis 9). Groupthink can lead to bad judgments and decisions being made. It serves as a simple way to deal with difficult issues.
Christians are often guilty of groupthink because nobody wants to rock the proverbial boat. (Ark?) Those of us who believe that God answers prayer will say that group prayer is not the same as groupthink IF everyone is willing to surrender their right to be right....or popular! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-05-2005 02:09 AM
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