Hammer found in Cretaceous layer

You know, all you need is very pure iron to keep it from rusting quickly. However, under the right conditions ALL iron will oxidize.Additionally, the hammer IS rusted - it's brownish red isn't it? Rather than a gray shiny metallic. As for the portion that was filed, who's to say it's not being kept filed or in a clean environment? Iron requires a catalyst to begin the oxidation process, I believe, and by keeping the air around the hammer clean and dry, it's not going to dry.As far as I can see, it's entirely possibly the iron from the hammer itself could have been leached from the hammer, combined with moisture in the area, and formed the concretion itself. It reminds me of ferricretes I've seen in the field.ferricrete (Glossary of Geology, 1980): (a) A term suggested by Lamplugh (1902) for a conglomerate consisting of surficialh sand and gravel cemented into a hard mass by iron oxide derived from the oxidation of perculating solutions of iron salts. (b) A ferruginous duricrust.

Percy and others.I have sent a polite email letter to the people at the Creation Evidence Museum, inviting them to have further analysis of the hammer done at my labs. I have offered them a way to have it analyzed free of charge by means of a research grant that we have here already in place.We will have to wait and see what their response is.Here is a copy of the letter.

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Good morning.

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I have recently encountered references to the hammer artifact that you have at your museum and have become very interested in it.
Do you by chance have references to the published articles showing its chemical properties and analysis. I could not find reference on your web site to the actual analysis.
I also note that your website says that further analysis are planned on the artifact.

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I would like to take this opportunity to offer the services of the Missouri University Research Reactor (MURR) analytical chemistry department to further investigate its chemical properties.

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I run a group of labs here at MURR centering on Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass spectrometry where we specialize in the chemical analysis of difficult matrixes and artifacts. (Please see our web site at No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.missouri.edu/~murrwww/pages/ac_main.shtml)
We also have a very good materials analysis facility No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.missouri.edu/~murrwww/pages/ms_main.shtml where many other types of analysis may be carried out.

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I would very much like the opportunity to analyze the chemical composition of this hammer artifact as the subject intrigues me.
Our facility extends an offer to other educational facilities such as yourself, wherein an internal grant at the University of Missouri will cover the entire cost of any such analysis of this or other artifacts.
After the analysis I would be happy to co-author a scientific paper with you.

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I look forward to hearing from you.

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Best Regards

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Barry Higgins
Spectrometrist
Missouri University Research Reactor
Phone # Office 573-882-5390
Lab 573-882-4159

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Needless to say. Should they agree to have this analysis done then I will make sure that the analysis is performed with a completely unbiased method. If it turns out that they are right then that is exactly what I will report.PY

Sounds entirely feasible. Guess it depends on the thickness of the layer. It's also possible that the Chlorine could have migrated into the surface layers of the iron if the stuff around it were significantly loaded with Cl.
If they allow me to analyze it then I will sample it at various depths by drilling into it. That way we will be able to tell the true composition both at the surface and deeper inside where the iron will be untouched.PY

Nicely written. The betting pool opens now, of course: odds are currently 4,512,875 - 1 against them sending it to you. Any takers? OTOH, I'm thoroughly impressed with your ability to type: without collapsing from apoplexic laughter.

Thanks Quetzal. It was kind of difficult to keep a straight face. But I have to separate my personal views from my profesional ones. When dealing with any other professional body I have to remember that I am speaking for the University so I must keep everything civil.I expect that most of these people are sincere enough anyway. They honestly beleive what they say. I am pretty sure that some don't though.Besides, I have a better chance of getting a shot at the hammer to find out what is really the deal here, if I treat them with respect.PYPS Hey Syamsu! What point do you reckon these odds will be 'realized' then? This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 01-06-2005 13:26 AM

Analysis of the composition of a sample of similar hammers from past eras might be important for establishing a context within which to interpret the analysis of Carl's hammer. It would be nice to be able to say how typical the composition is, but this makes the task more complicated.Doesn't a chlorine component seem unlikely to you? I know nothing about metallurgy, and poking about on the web provided no examples of chlorine being used in the forging of iron.--Percy

It seems kind of unlikely that the chlorine is chemically bonded to the iron, particularly if it leached into the hammer from its surrounding. There is a good chance that Chlorine from natural waters in the ground could have adsorbed onto it though. If this is the case then drilling beyond the weathered zone (about half inch at most) should produce pure Iron with no Chlorine. If it is still there at this depth then we have to conclude that it was always there.I have no idea what benefit the Cl would give to the iron. I would have expected it to oxidize faster rather than slower.Chlorine is highly electronegative so it tends to form ionic bonds rather than covalent or metallic. ie. it prefers to donate its single outer-shell electron completely (forming an anion) rather than share it with another atom. Common Chlorine molecules include NaCl (salt) and HCl (Hydrochloric acid)In the presence of a Cl- anion (or even a covalently bonded Cl atom normally only found bonded to Carbon)and water, the H+ ion tends to be liberated from water making it extremely corrosive. Just try putting salty water on a sheet of steel to see what I mean.H2O + NaCl (water and table salt) H+ OH- + Na+ Cl- <--> HCl +NaOH (Hydrochloric acid and Sodium Hydroxide. Nasty stuff)PY

even if a large spaceship appears with a three headed pilot? and he opens all the doors?LOL.On a serious note the bit about bubbles is sly misdirection.(1) Bubbles in castings are a problem because they weaken the castings, thus the inspections done to find them before product is shipped. Their incidence is low but constant. If it was high they would not use the process as it would result in too many failures.(2) The hammer is fairly obviously not just cast iron, but worked\hammered into shape from a cast ingot. This process significantly alters the size and distribution of material inside the iron matrix. It severely reduces bubble size in the process of also making the iron stronger (albeit more brittle). Google on hard worked iron and steel.Finally, the Chlorine content cannot be anything but taken from a surface sample: the only sample taken is the filings or else the whole story is not being told. The possibility of contamination of the surface with sweat (salt, sodium chloride) while the hammer was in use is also high, if not during collection of the filings -- without needing a source of chlorine in the environment (which is also probable given the existence of shells). There is also the process of quenching when working iron into shape and the quenching water could be salty, the dried salts then being pounded into the metal rather than forged with it.Too many questions, not enough answers.I say test the hammer, carbon date the handle, have the accretion analysed by a geologist familiar with accretions (especially the ferrous ones eh?) and lets see the results.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Sounds good to me. I will do my bit with the chemical analysis.
Any body out there got a good dating lab? etc.Course it all depends on whether they let me get my latex gloved hands on the sample doesn't it?PY

Iron making process today are not like they used to be. There have been improvements in the technology that allow greater consistency.One thing that may surprise people is that {iron} can be processed in a number of different ways with quite different results.First I did a google on {iron impurities} and it turned up a couple of good historical information sites:
Antebellum Iron Works in Western Virginia
IRON, Written by Alex Boyce, 2003Rather than getting iron to a molton state, it was heated until it could be worked - "wrought" - to drive most of the lumpy impurities out. This process can leave inclusions of any small structured material in the metal. Note also the bit about corrosion (from first reference): Next, iron does combine with chlorine:
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761567901___0/Iron.html Then there is the egyptian iron plate:http://www.catchpenny.org/iron.html The presence of chlorine in modern iron where the impurities are very strictly controlled in the smelting process would be something of a surprise, but the presence in historical wrought iron should not be unexpected.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

one more website on this issue:http://gsa.confex.com/...1AM/finalprogram/abstract_27912.htm I think that justifies a "'nuff said" on the topic.Enjoy.This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-06-2005 17:00 AM

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Just a thought. I'm not much of a metalurgist, so shoot me down if I'm way off base. If the hammer was continually exposed to sodium chloride solution through ground seepage or run off, would the iron, being positively charged, bind the chlorine and exclude sodium. Is the ionic binding strong enough for this too occur.If this were the case, would it then be possible to either elute the chlorine out of the iron? The obvious choice would be a weak solution of HF, but the chlorine may elute with high concentrations of acetic acid or other negatively charged ions. If you were able to replace the chlorine on the surface of the hammer this would seem to indicate that the chlorine contamination was not part of the manufacturing process. This would also do away with the need to get a core sample from the hammer, something which Mr. Baugh might object to.

Hi Tal. Thanks very much for doing this thread. I've mentioned this hammer in the past with a very limited knowledge about it. I'm wondering if Baugh's reluctance to have it analyzed is that he is afraid of a biased analysis being done. However, I would think that he could muster up someone who is competent to observe the whole process. I'm sure he won't want to take his eyes off the whole process himself. (THIS'S NOT SAID TO QUESTION THE INTEGRITY OF PURPLE Y. OR ANYONE ELSE.) I'm simply thinking of some reasons why Baugh might be reluctant to let it out. Baugh also has a cup in coal, as well as some other stuff which I'm interested in. I do hope an objective analysis will be done so the truth about whether or not it is bonafide will be solidly established.I would think that Baugh would want to verify everything by several sources so as to establish confidence in him and his work. If he's balking on that simply because he's afraid of the truth, I would fault him there, but he shouldn't be judged until all the facts are out as to his integrity.Btw, are you a US soldier in Iraq? If so, thanks for putting your life on the line for your nation, freedom and world stability. We pray often for you all, and I'll especially remember you in prayer that God will bless and protect you. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 01-06-2005 20:33 AM

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

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Hi Tal. Thanks very much for doing this thread. I've mentioned this hammer in the past with a very limited knowledge about it. I'm wondering if Baugh's reluctance to have it analyzed is that he is afraid of a biased analysis being done.

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Probably already done. (Oh, you mean ANOTHER biased analysis.)

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However, I would think that he could muster up someone who is competent to observe the whole process. I'm sure he won't want to take his eyes off the whole process himself. (THIS'S NOT SAID TO QUESTION THE INTEGRITY OF PURPLE Y. OR ANYONE ELSE.) I'm simply thinking of some reasons why Baugh might be reluctant to let it out.

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This is a good point. I would never trust a sample sent from Baugh. Collect it yourself, PY.

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Baugh also has a cup in coal, as well as some other stuff which I'm interested in.

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Do you know any coal miners? If so, would you accept a sample from a coal mine ... probably collected by a miner?

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I do hope an objective analysis will be done so the truth about whether or not it is bonafide will be solidly established.

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My bet: It'll never happen.

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I would think that Baugh would want to verify everything by several sources so as to establish confidence in him and his work.

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No, because Baugh either thinks he knows the TRUTH already, or because he knows that it's all a hoax. There are too many holes in this story and Baugh won't risk a challenge.

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If he's balking on that simply because he's afraid of the truth, I would fault him there, but he shouldn't be judged until all the facts are out as to his integrity.

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Well, this is one of the facts: Baugh has refused a third-party analysis. How long will you not hold him to accounts?

If the sample was analyzed, it was either tested on the brownish surface or within the filed, fresh surface. If it was actually the surface, then it's possible the Cl came from the surrounding bedrock.Salts are ubiquitous in limestone and rain can dissolve and mobilize the salt.Additionally, in the density photo HERE, does anyone know how was it analyzed? It looks like an x-ray. I also see a thin white line - is this representing density or something else?It's very annoying and completely unprofessional to post analysis results without stating what the analytical procedure was.