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Author | Topic: Moral Judgments | |||||||||||||||||||||||
berberry Inactive Member |
mike the wiz declares:
quote: What about when the point is to show why? Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
holmes writes me:
quote: Well, then, you would be wrong! He made a bigoted comment about homosexuality and I challenged him on it. Why do I not have the right to do so? And how is my challenge off-topic in a thread about moral judgements? I'm all for keeping threads on-topic, but when bigoted remarks are made they have to be challenged. I don't read through every post in every thread, but when I see such stupidity I call people on it unless someone else beats me to it. What's more, although this might seem somewhat OT from the original proposition of the OP, in light of the thread originator's P6 which clarified and expanded the OP I don't think we're off-topic at all. My challenge to Tal is directly related to a comparison of his blanket condemnation of homosexuality with the near universal condemnation of child rape within our common societal value system. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
Tal asks:
quote: The one who wins the case based on the evidence. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
Tal also wrote:
quote: I'm not the one who asked you. I picked up when you answered that person (I think it was schraf) by challenging you to show an evidentiary basis for your moral condemnation of boy kissing boy. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
Tal asks:
quote: Court is just another debating forum, albeit a pretty important one. This little forum is insignificant by comparison, but yes evidence does generally rule the day here. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
Tal asks:
quote: Anything empirical that would lead to the logical conclusion that the sexual act in question is wrong. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
Tal posits:
quote: Disagree. Leaving aside the question of polygamy for the moment, child rape is demonstrably wrong. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
holmes blathers:
quote: Since when is it necessary to start a new thread in order to challenge a goddamned assertion? Will you please quote the relevant forum guideline?
quote: The hell it isn't. He made an assertion in this thread. I challenged his assertion in this thread. Can you please show me where in the forum guidelines it says that a challenged assertion does not have to be backed up simply because holmes says so? If I am off-topic for challenging his assertion, then wouldn't his assertion also be off-topic? In case you haven't been paying attention, I challenged his assertion after he made it (which is usually the way it works). So if you really think this is off-topic then it would seem that your issue is with Tal, not me.
quote: And you cited it in this thread. So here I am going off-topic again (according to you) because I INSIST: show me the damned study and tell me precisely which harmful effects you see that it shows which go beyond socio-cultural concerns! It's not up to me to go find it when you are the one citing it.
quote: I haven't had a chance to shoot anything down because neither you nor Tal will trouble yourselves to back up your assertions! I certainly don't want to speak for Rrhain - especially since I haven't seen what you're talking about - but I suspect that he meant that any study purporting to show harmful effects of homosexuality between consenting parties must be viewed in the light of its socio-cultural environment. When a child is raped by an adult there is clearly a victim, and the harmful effects go beyond socio-cultural concerns.
quote: No, I see an assertion about consenting homosexual activity being compared morally to child rape. I took offense. Apparently the fact that I would dare to take offense at such a bigoted comparison is evidence to you that I'm hypersensitive. I've now reached the point where I really don't give a damn what you think. All of this is moot anyway, as Quetzal seemed to say, since Tal is obviously not going to back up his assertion.
quote: So far, the comparison has been to first a seven-year-old then a four-year-old. Is there some scenario under which you would view sex between an adult and a seven-year-old or four-year-old as not overtly rape or coercion? Most everything you've said would make perfect sense if the comparison between consenting homosexual activity had been made to consenting sexual activity between an adult and an older teen, but it makes no sense when the activity is between an adult and a child of four or seven. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
Quetzal remarks:
quote: Indeed I was one of "everybody", but I think I took care to say that I was interpreting the kiss as romantic and intended to lead to sexual activity. I should have also stated that I inferred the two boys to have each been of about the same age. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
holmes repeats once again:
quote: Not if he's going to bring it up in this thread. You had every opportunity to admonish him not to stray from your precious concept of this thread started by someone else entirely. I've said before that although I don't read all posts in all threads, whenever I do read one and see a bigoted comment that has gone unchallenged I will challenge it. You'll just have to get over it. If you don't like my policy why don't you go tattle to an admin?
quote: HELL NO SHE DID NOT!!! TAL BROUGHT IT UP!!! All schraf or I did was challenge him.
quote: By requiring you to provide a link to your evidence? The solution is simple: if you are ever in a debate with me and wish to cite a study, be damned sure you have a link handy or drop it.
quote: Then why in hell have you wasted a half dozen pages taking me to task for requesting that an assertion be backed up? If you had just kept quiet the whole thing would have probably been over in two or three posts. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
holmes writes:
quote: Yes, I do define sexual activity between an adult and a child of 11 or 12 as rape. Most children of that age cannot give fully informed consent. That's where the psychological harm is rooted: they are taken advantage of by someone old enough to know better. I realize there are some types of adult-child sexual activity where the damage is more difficult to pin down. An example might be the Mary Laternau (sp?) case. The boy who was involved with her is now a man and seems to be a perfectly well-adjusted adult. Of course, that's only by appearance, we can't know for sure. Even if we accept the idea that he's suffered no ill-effects from this relationship, we must still recognize that Ms. Laternau had no way of knowing whether she might do serious harm to the boy by having sex with him. I have no sympathy for her. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
holmes writes me:
quote: That's it? That's a study about nonconsensual sex. It has nothing to do with consensual homosexual activity among adults. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
First let's get the mea culpa out of the way. holmes writes me:
quote: I stand corrected. Tal had, in his no doubt on-topic way, praised the brilliance and timeliness of Levitical laws requiring that one cover one's shit. That and subsequent references to the book led to schraf's almost inevitable question. So take it up with schraf I suppose. The point is that I didn't drag the thread off-topic. Now to this: you say I'm
quote: Awwww, I'm so sorry to be such a bother. But you see, when you make a silly claim such as
Homosexuality has been and still is linked statistically to greater psychological/physical/social problems. you have made an assertion and should be prepared to back it up. Providing a link to a post which cites a study of nonconsensual sex is not sufficient to back this particular assertion. I don't care to follow the thread and I shouldn't have to; you made the above claim with the clear implication that you were speaking of consensual sex between adults. A link to a post will do, but I want the relevant post. And btw, you seem to think I wish to refute the statistics you're talking about. I may want to do no more than qualify them, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit by and let you imply that homosexuality by its nature causes harm between consenting adults. That's nonsense and I INSIST on the opportunity to respond to it without being required to read through a thread to find your evidence. Either document your claim properly or retract it. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
Tal writes:
quote: Within one's moral system one may of course view such activity as wrong. Of course, if one is truly concerned about STDs one will no doubt remain cognizant of all STDs when one passes judgement as you are so eager to do in violation of Jesus' direct words.
quote: Only if one has tunnelvision and can only see HIV in a world of its own where no other diseases exist. You see, there have been and still are pandemics and epidemics of other STDs besides HIV/AIDS. STDs that have affected far, far more heterosexuals than homosexuals. So if indeed you are prepared to say that all activity which might cause STDs is "wrong", then you will be quite consistent in saying that any particular type of such activity is wrong by extension. That would include homosexuality of course. It would also include heterosexuality. It would not include lesbianism. Why are you so obsessed with homosexuality? Keep America Safe AND Free!
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berberry Inactive Member |
So I take it you have no intention of backing your stupid assertion. That would of course be because you can't. Why didn't you just say so six or seven pages ago rather than trying to spread lies about homosexuality and then link to information that has absolutely nothing to do with your claim.
And you imply that I'm unreasonable. Keep America Safe AND Free!
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