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Author Topic:   Corrupting the Old Testament at all costs?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 121 (177163)
01-14-2005 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Brian
01-14-2005 7:28 PM


Re: Poor wee Miriam
Does Poor wee Miriam relate to PeeWee Herman? Google if needed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Brian, posted 01-14-2005 7:28 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 121 (181834)
01-30-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Brian
01-30-2005 10:12 AM


Re: Matthew 1
I find it interesting that Matthew 1 has come up so many times in this discussion because it contains what I think is one of the most telling passages related to the later redaction of the Messiah tales. It shows a clear example of how the texts and tales were manipulated after the fact to support a later view.
If we examine Matthew 1:22-23 we find.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
These two lines are totally different than anything else in Matthew 1 and if removed, the story flows smoothly. They are almost an aside, a commentary by some narrator or bard to make a point. It seems likely that these were added at a much later date and were not part of the original Matthew 1 story.
Here are the two versions, with and without 22-23.
18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19: Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
24: Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Note that this is a smoothly flowing tale. It is full and complete and steps through the events without interuption.
Now here it is with the two lines restored.
8: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19: Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24: Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Notice the break. The whole tenor of the piece changes with the emphasis moving from what actually happened to a connection with the OT.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Brian, posted 01-30-2005 10:12 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Brian, posted 01-30-2005 12:30 PM jar has replied
 Message 90 by lfen, posted 01-30-2005 12:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 121 (181841)
01-30-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Brian
01-30-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Matthew 1
Thanks. I hope it helped.
There is another issue with the passage though. The inserted text refers to Emmanuel and, as you point out, gives a definition. But verse 21
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
also has a definition, so that is not the big issue IMHO. However, verse 25 which ends the chapter returns to the issue of naming and it is Jesus that is mentioned.
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
This is definitely a return to the original theme. Note two significant things. In verse 21 the angel says "Thou", in other words, Joseph will name the child. This is reinforced in verse 25 when it says
...and he called his name JESUS.
Now compare this to the inserted text.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Note how it changes the import to "...they shall call his name Emmanuel". It is no longer you, but THEY. This is a whole different perspective, from a tale about a family and individuals to an emphasis on a people and movement.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Brian, posted 01-30-2005 12:30 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 121 (181859)
01-30-2005 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by lfen
01-30-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Matthew 1
Thank you.
But Matthew 1 is only one of many examples of editorial additions found throughout the Bible. We need to remember that it is not one story, but rather an anthology of anthologies, where changes have been made with no indication as to who made the insert, what was inserted or removed or any info on why the change was made.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by lfen, posted 01-30-2005 12:36 PM lfen has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 121 (182310)
02-01-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by doctrbill
02-01-2005 10:23 AM


DrBill and Brian
I will start a seperate thread on this since it is really OT but definitely pointing towards my issue of missing records. I hope that you will join me there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by doctrbill, posted 02-01-2005 10:23 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 121 (182852)
02-03-2005 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Brian
02-03-2005 5:41 AM


Re: Sanhedrin could not pass a death sentence.
That pertains to formal charges and sentence, IIRC, however there was no prohibition on mob rule and only if incitement could be proven were they threatened.
That was the purpose of Saul. He was charged with indirect inforcement. He'd go to an area, investiagte charges, make a decision on the spot and then incite the locals to execute the offender. It was an informal situation and as long as it was kept within the Jewish community, overlooked.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Brian, posted 02-03-2005 5:41 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 02-03-2005 4:07 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 121 (182923)
02-03-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Brian
02-03-2005 4:07 PM


Re: Sanhedrin could not pass a death sentence.
Don't you think that after a 'hit' or two, the Christians would be complaining to the Roman authorities who would then have a word or two with the 'hitmen'?
I imagine they did. There are indications of that but not all that many.
Pax Romana was meant to gaurantee protection under Roman rule, I could see a few hits but if Jews were regularly lynching Christians I would think that sooner or later the authorities would do something about it.
Yes and no. Pax Romana was very careful not to step into local and parochial issues. You can see this in the stories of Christ's trial and crucifixion. The state did not want to get involved in intra-sect issues. Until the number of Christians reached some key level (probably around the time of Constantine), they were seen as just a different Jewish Sect and things like hits were simply inhouse squabbles. In addition, unless the folk happened to be citizens (not all that usual) they had little say anyway.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 02-03-2005 4:07 PM Brian has not replied

  
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