Islam does not hate christianity

When I read things like this I cannot help but be embarassed to be called a Christian in the same breath as people who actually think this is true. No offense to you in particular Faith but you really are speaking in ignorance. I already had to go over this with DarkStar and I don't want to repeat it so I hope you read the discussion that started here: Message 44The discussion proceeded for several posts so to see where this intersects your argument you may have to read to the end of the thread.If you want to pick up where DarkStar left off then you can count on my to be there. I'll tell you now though that you will not get far at all telling me that my ancestors cultural identity is a figment of the political climate. I am not trying to be rude. Maybe you need to start reading actual history and what Islam actually believes rather than what some fundy apologetic site or organization tells you.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

While not actuallty posting i've kept an eye on this site sporadically.My view is that both sides in many debates stick to polarised opinions to strengthen the force of there retoric. To clear things up, some people hate other people just for what they believe. It is true. It does not matter what faith we are talking about. It doesn't matter if we're talking oabout faith. I think recently there were atrocities commited in Vietnam by people who call themselves Buddists, a faith that abhors voilence.Both Islam and Christainity have unpinnings in notions of love and respect.
To Faith and Buzsaw, there is no need to be so defensive of your religion, it gives the image your belief is unstable. Christainity is a beuatiful and strong faith that, like anything, has both positives and negatives.
Do not tar everyone with the same brush. I wonder how many Muslims you know, and what you think of them?PS, to both sides on this debate: do not engage in petty name calling, try and be considerate when putting forward your ideas, you only undermine them if you don'tThis message has been edited by m, 02-23-2005 15:04 AM

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I am not trying to be rude. Maybe you need to start reading actual history and what Islam actually believes rather than what some fundy apologetic site or organization tells you.

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Dear Sir:
I have been reading about the history of Islam since a year before 9/11 and most of my sources have not been Christian let alone "fundy" which is a misnomer and a rude and ignorant term in any case.You have different sources of information and they disagree with mine. Your views are completely familiar to me. You are selfrighteously wrong. The sources I have posted here are not fundy. I haven't even begun to get to the sources of which you are obviously ignorant. I will have to type from books as much of it is not online and I don't know if it is even worth the time and effort with the attitudes I'm finding here.

The titles and authors of said books would be helpful. They may or may not negate my experience of actually having half of my family be Moslem.If you didn't get your sources from "fundy" sites then I appologize. If you started reading the thread I linked to then you might understand how I might think that some people can be shallow and brainwashed by only refering to doctrine they agree with.Now about the main point of my reply. Do you wish to defend or retract you position that there was no such thing as a Palestinian prior to Israel's influence? I won't let this go as long as you are posting here.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

I might be wrong so you should help me. Please show me where in the Koran it encourages the type of behavior you are talking about.Certainly the Hadith talk about this but not all "Islamic fundamentalists" follow the Hadith just like not all of the "Christian fundamentalists" blow up abortion clinics and blame disasters on homosexuals.Historical atrocities done in the name of religion should not define a religion or else Christianity and Islam would be in the same boat. It sure is a good thing that we all are reasonable people on this forum who realize that the actions of men do not define the righteousness of God. Oh wait...Painting this picture of Moslems as practitioners of this violent religion sure must make it easer to sleep at night while we kill them or allow them to be killed by the thousands.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wrong. There's a ton of evidence for what I'm saying out there. If you start with Jihad Watch and faithfreedom.org you'll find it.

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They believed they worshipped the same God, yes, but that their new revelation cancelled out the Biblical revelation and is intended to conquer the world, and those who stick to the Biblical religions are now infidels for rejecting the new revelation. The Koran changes Biblical facts, makes Ishmael Abraham's heir instead of Isaac as the Bible says, even confuses Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses. They consider this the truth and the Bible false. They changed the name of God. In the Bible God gives His N ame as YHWH, "I Am that I Am." That is His Name. It is not Allah. The name Allah was originally the name of the moon god, one of hundreds of idol gods that were housed at Mecca before Mohammed made it Muslim. Yes, Muslims believe they worship the same God, but they don't.

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how much you explain differences and explain how Islam took from christianity, which I don't disagree with, that doesn't matter. The fact is Jews were not totally obliterated because Islam tolerated the Jews.

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Basically they had to pay for the privilege of remaining alive. The same for the Jews throughout most of their history under Islam, in spite of a "golden age" in which they supposedly fared well, though indications are that it wasn't as golden as they would like to think.

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When I said christians I meant Jews and christians, it was simply a typing mistake on my part to not say Jews.It was almost unheard of for a conquered nation to be allowed to live,and practice their faith, that tribute tax was a very kind gesture.

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The Crusades were European wars to repel the Muslims who had invaded Europe and the Holy Land. It had nothing whatever to do with spreading Christianity. If you would look at the link I provided to the history of how Christianity was spread you would see that it had nothing to do with force. The Inquisition also had nothing to do with the spread of Christianity, it was one of the corrupt actions of the corrupt Roman church, and since I identify with the Protestants the Inquisition martyred I don't consider the Inquisition to have anything to do with Christianity.

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They inhabited the holy land. They never invaded Europe.

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It's all about conquering the world for Allah and ridding the world of Allah's enemies, either by conversion or by murder.

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No, if that were the case, dominant religions such as Judaism and christianity would not exist today.

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-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

Yet... ... is not propaganda?!?!? Which does not free them of the obvious agenda plastered everywhere. Yes you are right that Christian does not equal Moslem hater but if you think that those sites represent a pinnacle of objectivity then I don't feel you have a leg to stand on outright calling other peoples sources, which they have yet to disclose, propaganda!

People often get the Koran and the Hadith confused. Most of the violent actions performed by those considered radical Islamists stems from strict adherance to the Hadith which many Moslems do not recognize.If you know of a part of the Koran that specifically encourages the type of behavior of the likes of Bin Laden then please share them.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

I'm glad you posted here.Yeah I don't think christians that think muslims are bad are hateful, I just think they misunderstand, the latter of what you said.Since I do not own or have ever read the Koran I thank you for sharing this verse:

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Q29:47
And do not argue with the people of the Scripture ('Christians, Jews') except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and Say: "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender."

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-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

That IS a great passage.Funny thing about most of the Moslems I know. They consider the Bible to be the holy word of God that has been corrupted by man. Some can even quote the Bible better than many Christians.Heck, most of them believe that Christ is coming back on judgement day! They believe in most of what the Gospels say and treat Jesus as an extremely important figure in their religion. They just don't believe that Jesus is the son of God.Saying that Moslems are anti-Christian is just plain ignorant.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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If you didn't get your sources from "fundy" sites then I appologize.

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Thank you. I have only posted three references on this thread and none is "fundy." Two are not even Christian: jihadwatch.org and faithfreedom.org. The other was a History of the Christian Religion written in the 19th century by a Christian scholar before the term "fundamentalism" was coined. And most of those called "fundies" are actually evangelicals or orthodox Bible-believers. The term "fundamentalist" has a particular historical meaning that doesn't describe many of today's Christians.

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If you started reading the thread I linked to then you might understand how I might think that some people can be shallow and brainwashed by only refering to doctrine they agree with.

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I read your post and would like to answer it eventually. I have not read more of the thread than that and a few lines of the post following yours.

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Now about the main point of my reply. Do you wish to defend or retract you position that there was no such thing as a Palestinian prior to Israel's influence? I won't let this go as long as you are posting here.

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I stand by it. The term was coined for propaganda purposes. The majority of the Arabs who lived in "Palestine" had come there from a variety of Arab nations to work for the Israelis in the early part of the 20th Century and stayed on. Their roots are no older than that and they identified with their nation of origin, not Palestine. The myth grew up of a Palestinian people over time but it was fanned by Islam's official hatred of Israel and the Jews. It appears that many Palestinians have come to believe the myth but it is nevertheless a myth.I am really stretched trying to reply to posts and meet other obligations at the same time, but later tonight I will do what I can to find solid evidence for what I'm saying.Meanwhile here are some quotes from Walid Shoebat, a "Palestinian" who learned the hard truths about Islam: edited for lousy grammar and code errors.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-23-2005 18:03 AM

yeah

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The Crusades were European wars to repel the Muslims who had invaded Europe and the Holy Land. It had nothing whatever to do with spreading Christianity. If you would look at the link I provided to the history of how Christianity was spread you would see that it had nothing to do with force.

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I guess the Balkans don't count as Europe? The long occupation of Spain and Portugal doesn't count? Byzantium isn't the Holy Land, but it's not quite Europe either. In fact the entire Middle East was conquered by Islam and they were not kind to the INDIGENOUS Jews and Christians who had been there for centuries already.

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They [Muslims] inhabited the holy land. They never invaded Europe.
  —chris p

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Unless you count Spain, Yugoslavia, and parts of Austria, Romania, and Hungary. But you raise a good point about Muslim religious tolerance. In Spain Jews lived quite tolerably under the Caliphs until Ferdinand and Isabella brought Christian rule and inquisition. Talk about your conversion by the sword!Jazzn has made great points about the difference between historical reality and Western Christian religious/cultural bias. The Muslim empire didn't spread rapidly across N. Africa and the Middle East because all non-believers were put to the sword. There was a great deal more religious tolerance, Jews AND Christians, under the Caliphs then there ever was under most Christian rulers - with the possible exception being the Byzantines.Sephardic Jews lived fairly amicably alonside Muslims in Jerusalem and the ME until the fall of the Ottomans and the rise of Zionism in the 20th century.Like Jazzn said, you can't judge a religion (or any group) by the actions of extremists and fanatics whose motivations are usually political rather than religious.This message has been edited by custard, 02-23-2005 18:40 AM

Maybe we need to stop using this term. Perhaps extremist, radical, or some other word might better represent the type of people we are talking about. I would consider Osama Bin Laden to be a radical Moslem and Jerry Falwell to be a radical Christian. Both believe in righteous violence toward other people is supported by their religion. You really need to read that thread. You are treading on very sensitive ground with this. My family lived in a small town near Ramullah for over a dozen generations. Whoever told you this is lying to you. Other Arabs call us Philistinis and have for quite a long time. Again, please read that thread. Except for the people who lived there for hundreds of years and have been called Philistinis for that long. Like me. Well the house that my great-great grandfather built that is still standing today might disagree with your "evidence". I am more likely to believe the people who have actually lived there over other who are likely to have a political bias toward "evidence" that the Palestinian people are not native.Not even DarkStar was bold enough to try to say that Palestinians didn't live there before the Israeli occupation. That evidence better be pretty darn solid. Palestinians did not have a "national identity" before Israel was formed. There was no concept of a nation to them so there might have been some confusion over the issue. I certainly don't take the word of one apologetic Jordanian over generations of family history that have been passed down to me.Please read that thread. You may understand a little better where I am coming from. You will have to try a little harder though next time to try to prove to me that my family never existed.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-23-2005 16:44 AM

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show