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Author Topic:   Isaiah and the Dead Sea Scrolls
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 91 of 204 (199341)
04-14-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by moronman
04-14-2005 12:05 PM


DSS have no direct relation to our Bible
...Who first found these scrolls and why did we automatically trust them assume them translate them and pass them on?
I have no idea what you are thinking here. The Dead Sea scrolls are not at all important to our own Bible texts EXCEPT for the one fact that they demonstrate the accuracy of our texts after 2100 or more years.
Nobody "trusted them, assumed them, or passed them on." They have been studied carefully for 50 years by a LOT of scholars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by moronman, posted 04-14-2005 12:05 PM moronman has not replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 92 of 204 (199345)
04-14-2005 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
04-14-2005 1:21 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
I will repeat once again:
You stated the DSS were not the basis for modern text. Therefore, neither YOU or I can use the DSS to support our positions that there have not been/have been changes to the modern text over time.
- You might have other "proof", but this isn't it.
- Why is ONE scroll supportive of your claim to "no changes" and yet no other scrolls count towards proof of change...purely speculation on my part, but I'd say it's in your head.
So, according to you, your support for "no changes" is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 1:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 3:18 PM Taqless has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 204 (199354)
04-14-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Taqless
04-14-2005 2:11 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
This is ridiculous. Just THINK, OK, just THINK.
The OTHER scrolls ARE proof that there have been no changes as they too are the same texts we have, though not in as good condition as the Isaiah scroll. They aren't as complete and perfect as the Isaiah scroll, which is why it is always made the reference point, but the others are evidence of lack of changes since then too.
Did you read the Sally example in the TheologyWeb discussion that I posted for the second time above? TheologyWeb Campus
Pretend your Aunt Sally learns in a dream the recipe for an elixir that preserves her youth. When she wakes up, she scribbles the directions on a scrap of paper, then runs to the kitchen to make up her first glass. In a few days Aunt Sally is transformed into a picture of radiant youth because of her daily dose of Sally’s Secret Sauce.
Aunt Sally is so excited she sends detailed, hand-written instructions on how to make the sauce to her three bridge partners (Aunt Sally is still in the technological dark agesno photocopier or email). They, in turn, make copies for ten of their own friends.
All goes well until one day Aunt Sally’s pet schnauzer eats the original copy of the recipe. In a panic she contacts her three friends who have mysteriously suffered similar mishaps, so the alarm goes out to the others in attempt to recover the original wording.
Sally rounds up all the surviving hand-written copies, twenty-six in all. When she spreads them out on the kitchen table, she immediately notices some differences. Twenty-three of the copies are exactly the same. Of the remaining three, however, one has misspelled words, another has two phrases inverted (mix then chop instead of chop then mix) and one includes an ingredient none of the others has on its list.
Do you think Aunt Sally can accurately reconstruct her original recipe from this evidence? Of course she can. The misspellings are obvious errors. The single inverted phrase stands out and can easily be repaired. Sally would then strike the extra ingredient reasoning it’s more plausible one person would add an item in error than 25 people would accidentally omit it.
Even if the variations were more numerous or more diverse, the original could still be reconstructed with a high level of confidence if Sally had enough copies.
This, in simplified form, is how scholars do textual criticism, an academic method used to test all documents of antiquity, not just religious texts. It’s not a haphazard effort based on hopes and guesses; it’s a careful linguistic process allowing an alert critic to determine the extent of possible corruption of any work.
I would reverse the story to make the point I've been trying to make. Say one of the first three Sally sent it to simply lost it and then died. But the recipe had already been copied and sent out to a dozen or so others, and it kept being copied and handed down for a hundred years until one of them came down to you on an index card tucked away in your mother's cookbook. It hadn't been tried for many years and you didn't know if it was the same recipe as the original.
Then you see a story in the local newspaper about this recipe being discovered behind the baseboard of an old house that was being remodeled and you recognize the same recipe. It's dated a hundred years ago. Eventually stories come out about others who have had that same recipe handed down to them too. Some say they remember their grandmother's having it but it's no longer to be found. On editorial pages and on message boards you all get together and compare your versions.
Twenty people are found who possess a copy of this recipe. You discover that they'd all come from different sources than you got yours, and nobody could trace theirs back to the one found in the old house but a couple thought they could trace theirs to one of the other original three whose copies had been destroyed.
Some have a few spelling errors. A couple got the ingredients or the mixing instructions in a different order from yours. One has one less ingredient than yours does. Seventeen of them including those with the spelling errors say exactly what yours says, and the two that reversed the instructions don't affect the outcome of the recipe anyway.
But even with all that certainty some people write in doubting it's the same as the original recipe because after all a FEW of them say something slightly different.
But the seventeen that agree with each other also agree with the one found in the old house.
Would you or would you not be justified in concluding that the copying that was done over those hundred years was very accurate in order for seventeen of you to get the exact same recipe?
Whether or not they are identical to the one "Aunt Sally" originally wrote down can't be ascertained for sure from this of course. This is the point PaulK kept bringing up. But I hadn't claimed any certainty past the one found in the old house as it were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Taqless, posted 04-14-2005 2:11 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2005 3:55 PM Faith has replied
 Message 95 by Taqless, posted 04-14-2005 5:00 PM Faith has replied
 Message 96 by Taqless, posted 04-14-2005 5:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 94 of 204 (199374)
04-14-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
04-14-2005 3:18 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
quote:
Whether or not they are identical to the one "Aunt Sally" originally wrote down can't be ascertained for sure from this of course. This is the point PaulK kept bringing up. But I hadn't claimed any certainty past the one found in the old house as it were.
No, it is not. If you think that I have been arguing about changes to the Book of Isaiah AFTER the writing of the DSS scroll then you really, really haven't been paying attention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 3:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 6:08 PM PaulK has replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 95 of 204 (199392)
04-14-2005 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
04-14-2005 3:18 PM


Have you read what you have written?
This is the point PaulK kept bringing up.
1. Really? Then why has he responded that he is NOT talking about that. You've been told this quite a few times.
Faith #71 writes:
...the DSS scrolls have no bearing whatever on our texts as they were not the basis for our texts.
2. By your own above admission the DSS DO NOT support your position...so whatever you tell me about it and Aunt Sally I don't care because it HAS NO RELEVANCE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 3:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 6:18 PM Taqless has replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 96 of 204 (199395)
04-14-2005 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
04-14-2005 3:18 PM


As for Aunt Sally
I can't resist.
Since Aunt Sally's recipe (the DSS) is not the basis for the recipes these people have copies of it should be concluded that the recipes in fact did not come from Aunt Sally..DUH! Even if they are similar...who cares?
This is getting strange.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 3:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 97 of 204 (199418)
04-14-2005 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by PaulK
04-14-2005 3:55 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
Of course not. Perhaps I should have said "back past." Couldn't you try just a LITTLE harder to follow the argument here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2005 3:55 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2005 6:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 204 (199423)
04-14-2005 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Taqless
04-14-2005 5:00 PM


Re: Have you read what you have written?
Sally represents the original, say Moses. The DSS were copies of the original, like say one of the three Sally gave hers to. We got ours from another one of the three.
A ten year old could have figured this out but I guess you don't want to bother.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-14-2005 05:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Taqless, posted 04-14-2005 5:00 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Taqless, posted 04-14-2005 7:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 99 of 204 (199426)
04-14-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
04-14-2005 6:08 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
Yawn. Perhaps you would like to state which of my major points is supposedly similar to your argument.
Or you could just save time and apologise now for your misrepresentation and for your last post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 6:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 6:24 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 204 (199429)
04-14-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by PaulK
04-14-2005 6:21 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
Or you could just save time and apologise now for your misrepresentation and for your last post.
YOu have misunderstood this whole thing from the beginning. You have been pursuing an argument of your very own that is unrelated to what I said. You still aren't getting it. You should apologize to me for starting this thread and continuing to make your irrelevant challenge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2005 6:21 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2005 6:29 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 101 of 204 (199430)
04-14-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
04-14-2005 6:24 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
You want me to APOLOGISE for giving you the chance to explain your claim ?
Are you that upset at bewing proved wrong ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 6:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 7:06 PM PaulK has replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3953 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 102 of 204 (199440)
04-14-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
04-14-2005 1:31 PM


Re: Bible inerrancy in what sense?
Faith writes:
I also gather he does not regard the Bible as inerrant, so I probably should not have agreed with his "failing memories" line. I agree only that different witnesses reported on different facets of what they witnessed, and none had perfect perception of all the events....
Inerrant, meaning without error. That’s a tough call and I have often wrestled with this. Basically, I don’t believe the Bible was dictated in a word for word communication from God, (although some parts may have been like the ten commandments).
I believe that it was inspired by God but not written by God. Well, what does that mean? Inspired is to be guided by, affected by, but not dictated to in staccato fashion. So the very process of inspiration is inexact in its nature.
So when more than one individual is being inspired, even if the inspiration is about the same topic, should we be surprised the outcome is not exactly the same? Again, it’s the message that’s important and not the semantics of the message.
I agree with Faith’s assessment:
faith writes:
...Nevertheless nothing was subtracted that isn't clear from other parts of the Bible and nothing was added that doesn't support its message and spirit.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 1:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Taqless, posted 04-14-2005 7:40 PM Monk has replied
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 7:50 PM Monk has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 103 of 204 (199443)
04-14-2005 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by PaulK
04-14-2005 6:29 PM


Re: Your kidding, right?
If I were upset it would only be at the inability of my opponents to understand logic. I'm continually amazed and appalled at the strange inability to grasp simple thought on this site that hosts people who consider themselves thinkers. You and Tagless are typical specimens of the malady. Truly a phenomenon to be studied I believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2005 6:29 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2005 2:26 AM Faith has replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 104 of 204 (199446)
04-14-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
04-14-2005 6:18 PM


Re: Have you read what you have written?
Sally represents the original, say Moses.
Why are you all of the sudden bringing Moses into this? This was supposed to be you explaining how the DSS support your statement when they are not the basis for the modern text.
You have not done this.
A ten year old could have figured this out but I guess you don't want to bother.
It's too bad you've been reduced to this in the absence of being able to support your statement.
Like PaulK says you need to apologize to him for misrepresentation and to me for wasting my time debating with someone that keeps changing the goal posts.
You need to admit you were wrong, period!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 6:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 105 of 204 (199447)
04-14-2005 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Monk
04-14-2005 6:57 PM


Re: Bible inerrancy in what sense?
Hi Monk,
While I agree with you and jar about the message being maintained in the bible this thread was opened because Faith made the claim that one scroll, Isaiah scroll, of the DSS was support that there have been no significant changes throughout history in the text.
Unfortunately, since the DSS are not the basis for the modern text (information from Faith) this "support" for "no significant changes" becomes irrelevant.
I understood that PaulK opened this thread being opened for that reason. As well as the fact the PaulK was not discussing changes post-DSS.
Anyway, we could go on forever I'm sure about bible inerrancy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Monk, posted 04-14-2005 6:57 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 04-14-2005 8:00 PM Taqless has replied
 Message 119 by Monk, posted 04-14-2005 10:59 PM Taqless has replied

  
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