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Author | Topic: Why Belief? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Funny, part of the reason I stopped believing was because I didn't like how all the Christians I knew treated other people and each other so poorly. Mostly, I became much happier and less judgemental of myself and others when I stopped being a believer.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Even as a little kid, long before I read Gloria Steinem , I felt it was just unfair and nonsensical for there to only be male priests in the Catholic Church.
What was wrong with women? How come they weren't good enough to have the important jobs? I wanted to be one of those kids that got to help out the priest and the deacon with the ceremony, but of course there were only altar boys, never altar girls! This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-16-2005 02:42 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You are partially wrong and partially right.
quote: I don't know if I thought it "wasn't God". I just knew I didn't feel any kind of connection the way other people said they did.
quote: I certainly was pressured by my mother to go to Mass every sunday, and to Catechism every week until I was 18. I was smart enough to not even bring up the subject of not going because I knew it wasn't an option. I certainly didn't see the point in the catechism and would have stopped if given the choice, but I had a fear of God's retribution for the sin of not going to Mass every Sunday. Once I got to college, I went to the local Catholic church exactly twice. I might have kept attending, but the priest had a very heavy accent and I couldn't understand a thing he said. Didn't seem to be much point to attending, so I stopped going altogether. I still had some vague idea that I was sinning and bad things would start happening to me. Of course, nothing bad happened at all.
quote: I was searching and wondering about the spiritual in my late teens and early twenties. Certainly the Catholic Church seemed more and more BS-filled as I thought about it more, and was away from it. Then I began to question all religious thought and all belief in the supernatural. My rational mind, which had always been fairly strong, started to strengthen. I also began to come to terms with and heal from my abused childhood. It's funny that my loss of faith and recovery from past emotional abuse came about at the same time, and it was the realization that there was probably no God or Spirit to help me that gave me the strength to move on in my life. I was all there is, most likely, so I figured I'd better make the choice to take responsibility for my life and make it what I wanted it to be. So I did. And still do.
quote: And I sense the same from you, Rat.
quote: Well, sure, if you'd like to believe this, I have no problem. It is a lovely thought, and thank you for sharing it. I of course don't know if I'm talking to God or not, but I do get a great deal of pleasure out of "communing" with animals. Trying to understand them and their ways of communicating their thoughts is endlessly fascinating to me.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, no, I don't ask for forgiveness if I've done nothing wrong.
quote: Oh, yes, I forgave my parents years ago. I do not excuse how they treated me, and I am not close to them now because they have never owned up to their abuse. Part of the process of coming to terms with my childhood abuse is realizing that my parents are human, and have their own pain and limitations and that's why they weren't good parents to me. On an emotional maturity scale, both of them are pretty childlike and cowardly in many ways. As long as I have known them, they have always chosen to wrap themselves in loneliness and fear and depression and bitterness and self-hatred. I have a lot of pity for the tiny, limited, stunted emotional lives they lead. I am really proud of the place I have come to in my life. It was a LOT of work. I know I will always have to work against the self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy that my mother and father gave me, but my self-work gave me the feeling that every day of my life is full of possibility. That's something that my parents will probably never know, sadly.
quote: Thank you, it's sweet of you to say so.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, asking the quastion assumes that there actually is an answer to the question; that there actually is a reason. I don't know if there is a reason or not. I don't think there is any way to know the answer to that question.
quote: Well, we ask those questions because we have really big, complex brains that allow us to have complex, abstract thought and self-awareness, i.e. consciousness. As for my purpose? I decide what it is. We all do. Anyway, thank you very much for your kind and encouraging words. It sounds like you can relate, so I also know how hard you have worked and still strive to be the sort of person that you want to be. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-25-2005 01:31 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Are you kidding?
I own a leather bound copy of the first four Douglas Adams books in the Hitchiker's Guide series. I also very much liked Dirk Gentley's Holistic Detective Agency. Have you read that one? Anyway, are you planning to see the film of THGTTG? Opening night is this Friday, and I may have to be a big geek and go. I have a second reason to see it sooner rather than later... I am a huge Joss Whedon fan (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel) and particularly of his very short-lived series called Firefly. The series was fantastic and IMHO would have been just as great, if not better, than both Buffy and Angel, but the idiots at Fox Televidion just didn't get it. Well, Whedon got funding to turn the Firefly concept into a full length feature film called Serenity which is due to be released this September, and there is a trailer playing for it before THGTTG. I'm all a-tingle! {OK people - OFF-TOPIC! Stop it right here, right now. - Adminnemooseus} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-25-2005 08:06 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The Buddah was a pretty nice guy.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Because you weren't raised in a predominantly Buddhist country, mainly. It's really that simple.
quote: That's right. There's no such thing as "perfect" at all, really.
quote: Yes. The power to be blessed is within each of us, not an outside entity.
quote: Unsupported claim.
quote: Huh, how so? What more do you need to know to live a good life than the Eightfold Path?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Were you raised in the US? In Texas? Then you became a Christian because that is the dominant religion in your culture, by far.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Fair enough. However, if you never stopped being a Christian, didn't you just become a less dfundamentalist Christian rather than really having no inclination at all? Did you really investigate Buddhism from the viewpoint that it was actually just as valid as Christianity? I rather doubt it.
There's no such thing as "perfect" at all, really. quote: I've never seen anything that is perfect, so why should I accept that "perfect" exists? Also, it does not logically follow that if "perfect" doesn't exist that all meaning is stripped from life. I find that an absurd statement. I think your engineer brain is getting in your way again. There is not an answer to every question, dawg. Why do you think there has to be? I swear, you have the most discomfort with uncertainty of anyone I have ever met.
quote: Let me be clearer. What I meant was that we do not need a deity to bestow blessings upon us, that we are whole and complete as we are.
quote: See, here I don't really believe you. No matter how "rightous" someone is, they are just as fallible and mortal and subject to the laws of physics as the rest of humanity. You can say you value the "intangible" but when it comes right down to it, you probably spend the bulk of your time thinking about and working for the tangible things in life.
quote: The Eightfold Path is love in action, dawg. Living the Eightfold Path is to show love and compassion for all living things. Are you sure you really investigated Buddhism?
quote: Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to that question? Just because you have difficulty with ambiguity doesn't mean the universe is obligated to indulge your discomfort.
quote: Now I am sure you never really studied Buddhism. "Suffering" in Buddhism means "desire" or the wish to control things. Once we stop trying to control things (particularly other people), we let go of much of our dissatisfaction and discontent with life.
quote: You don't understand. Of course, a Buddhist philosophy does recognize that he is suffering because he desires to have his daughter back, but it also is much more honest and less fearful about death, considering it a normal part of life instead of something to be avoided, ignored, and feared. Buddhism accepts that we will feel grief and loss and pain, and we are to have compassion for ourselves and others when experiencing them.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No, not a Buddhist, although Buddhism is probably the only religion I could even come close to embracing. I think the Eightfold Path is a fine way to live; much more focused upon improving oneself instead of arrogantly trying to "save" everyone else, and it seems to also just make a lot of sense. However, the whole "we should work towards detachment and reduce our desire" thing seems too against human nature to really be completely healthy.
quote: As an Agnostic, I enjoy complete freedom to actually investigate all religions and worldviews equally without any existing religious filters.
quote: What makes you think you know what the laws of god are? I know what the laws of physics are, and anyone can learn and observe them. Clearly, the physical laws are much, much more universal that any human perception of god's law. For that matter, how do you know the laws of physics aren't the laws of god? Also, which god?
quote: What's stopping you from bestowing blessings upon yourself and others?
Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to (the meaning of life)? quote: First of all, I never said they didn't need a deity in their life, and I never said I thought my logic was enlightened, nor absolute. Second, I believe it was you who just said this to me:
quote: So maybe you should be asking yourself the question you just asked me, eh? Anyway, one objection to Buddhism that dawg had was that it didn't anwer the "meaning of life" question, and I simply asked the question above, "Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to the meaning of life"? I think it is a good question.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Just because you have difficulty with ambiguity doesn't mean the universe is obligated to indulge your discomfort quote: No, not really.
quote: You are under the mistaken impression, perhaps, that the universe is sentient or something? His "weighty thoughts" are simply a consequence of a big, complex brain capable of abstract thought, especially extrapolation into the future, and consciousness. Our evolution also gave us the consequence of being mostly hairless. Does that mean the universe is "obligated" to always provide us with the means to clothe and warm ourselves? Hardly. The universe owes us nothing.
quote: I don't even know what this means.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Crap. I think I know what happened.
I must have hit the "edit" button instead of "reply" and since I am an admin... Anyway, I'm so sorry about that! Now that it's happened I will be more aware and be much more careful. I didn't realize that clicking on the edit button would automatically pop us into admin mode. I have nothing to argue with you about in your post, dawg. (It's a first, I know. ) I really do see a change in you, BTW. Much less strident, much more...relaxed.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Gosh, I am sorry to hear that. What can I tell you? Well, if it was me I would realize that the only person who has the power to change my behavior is me. Likewise, I try to be as compassionate, understanding and loving to myself as I would be to my best friend, but I would also be honest with myself like I would be with my best friend if I thought they were engaging in some self-destructive behaviors. Perhaps try to find a support group. Often the people who help the most are the people who are going through it themselves, and you all can support and encourage each other to make the proper changes in your life. Just ask yourself; is your rebellion at making the changes you need worth it when your life is on the line? What would you say to a friend or loved one if you saw them doing what you are doing. Doesn't your book say "God helps those who help themselves?" I am not saying that to be a jerk, but to maybe give you some incentive to make the changes you need to. You'll be in my thoughts, Phat. Be well. e-mail me if you'd like.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Did you grow up in the Middle East or India or something?
quote: What holidays did you celebrate and get vacations from school during?
quote: Sure. Ever open the phone book in any town in the US and count how many christian churces there are. In the medium/small town I live in there are a couple of hundred. There isn't a single Hindu Temple and only a few mosques and Jewish temples. How many Hindu temples or Mosques were in your home town?
quote: So, you never touched a bible, nor knew any of Christianities basic beliefs nor tenets before you decided to believe all of it? Had you ever heard of the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, the Flood, the Three Wise men, the story of Job, Moses, the Plagues, Jesus' Crucifiction and rising on the third day, etc.... Nwever heard of any of that AT ALL before converting?
quote: Did you get vacation from school for Ramadan? How about for Sarasvati Puja or Siddhartha Buddha Day? How many Buddhist meditation centers do you have in your town? Shinto shrines?
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