Why Belief?

I suppose but that's true for everybody and irrelevant to this particular point. In this case we're talking about two specific situations, involving our conscious knowledge of how we arrived at belief, and in my case and Jackal125's, we KNOW that the Christian culture around us had NO influence on us because we paid no meaningful attention to it, had no interest in it, did not pursue any of it, did not even know people involved in it.I really don't think you are following the points being made here. You are raising a question that has already been amply answered.

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Despite the fact that you state in message 90 that you began "simply believing it's (Bible?) the truth" and you looked at other religions, perhaps the childhood experience with the Christian church influenced your decision to follow Christ. Couldn't that be considered as a possibility?

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Well, I had the idea of God as a personal God from that early experience, but at the beginning of my later seeking of God I assumed that was the idea of God that all religions have, so there was nothing specifically Christian about it at that point. All I could remember from the Bible was the last line of the Lord's Prayer about the power and the glory, and the line about fearing no evil in the valley of death from the 23rd psalm, which was very helpful during a scary period when I was involved in the occult.Far more influential was the fact that I have already described at length, that I had all the prejudices against Christianity that I find at EvC, and it is not easy to take it at all seriously from that frame of reference. Accepting Jerry Falwell as anywhere in the same universe with me, which was one of the last barriers I had to surmount, was the biggest philosophical hurdle imaginable considering where I started from. And again, I also had NO Christian friends but only friends who shared the same anti-Christian prejudices and tried to dissuade me when they saw me moving in that direction -- except for one, my Jewish best friend from high school who had been through a Christian-flavored cult as well as sundry New Age experiences -- far from Biblical Christianity in any case.In general, to make your case, you have to answer why my childhood churchgoing wasn't influential for the majority of my life, why it was so easy to give up as a teenager, why so many give up their childhood churchgoing and do without Christ for the entire rest of their lives and die atheists or in some other belief system, why some go on to deep involvement in other religions despite their being raised in this same Christian culture, as I have abundantly discussed here already, if you think there's such power in those childhood experiences.

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What about Proverbs 22:6--Train a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not turn from it?

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But I DID turn from it, for about thirty years of my life, and I can hardly be said to have been "trained" in anything, was merely sent to church with my siblings while our parents hardly ever set foot inside the building, and otherwise applied no Biblical precepts to their childraising.

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I'm sure that your church talks about planting seeds that may bear fruit later (in regards to evangelism). Perhaps those seeds were planted in you when you were a young child. You seem to deny that possibility by saying the your late teens and early twenties were devoid of or had a multiplicity of religeous influences.

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Those seeds were planted in almost EVERYBODY I grew up with, more deeply than in me, and NOBODY but I became a Christian -- after thirty years of committed atheism yet.

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Do you really think that you had no Christian influence in your life before you came to your latest understanding of the truth? None? Your own testamony seems to refute this. Did you even consider that this was an influence on you?

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You are not following the discussion here. Schrafinator pointed out all the EXTERNAL Christian STUFF in American environment as if that all by itself should explain why anybody becomes a Christian in America regardless of personal experience to the contrary. She insists on this against all the ways we IGNORED it, hardly noticed it, had no interest in it. This is not the same thing as saying that there was NO childhood influence ULTIMATELY. When I started out seeking God I thought HINDUISM had the truth. Some of my friends were following Hindu gurus, one was a serious practitioner of Buddhism and still is. This is not the same thing as saying that there was NO childhood Christian influence, but THEY had the SAME or even MORE Christian influence. Why do you TOTALIZE this? I haven't totalized it, in fact I could discuss ways my early experience did figure in my later understanding, but in this discussion I'm merely arguing with this silly idea that living in a Christian culture automatically predisposes one to being a Christian -- the evidence is against it.

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Can you see why Shraf and Crash have doubts that there were no influences on Jackel25?

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No. What he said was completely reasonable adn believable and I consider their "doubts" impertinent, rude and false. In his case IIRC he didn't even go to church as a child.

many Christians feel the same way So you feel you weren't trained at all in Sunday School? I have some doubt because that is where the most heartfelt indoctrination occurs in most churches. ...Jesus loves me, this I know.....Either that or you are saying that Proverbs 22:6 is wrong.How much indoctrination did you receive?
What age did you start?
At what age did you determine that it was a bunch of garbage?Do you remember singing songs in church or sunday school? Do you remember being happy in church or sunday school? I do and I stayed away from church for almost as long as you. Another indication of the influence from childhood....or maybe movies Seems like you learned more than you thought. Just remembering a verse after 30 years shows how much had been imparted to you before you left the church.I am not sure of the past influences on Jackel. I think the links that Schraf is making between Jackel's decision and the prevalence of Christian people in our society, is tenuous. I think it is more likely that, in a time of crisis, the Christians were the most likely to be available to help. Also, the evangelists that stand on the street corner is most likely to be a Christian. So it seems more likely that he would have seen Christianity as a way out of a particular critical spiritual crisis. I have to agree that without more info (which Jackel might not even know) we would be largely engaging in speculationHowever, while it is still some speculation, I think you were affected by your childhood experience more than you believe. Actually, I think that the Church and Christians need to look at that and explain why such a "fulfulling" life is given up by so many of the faithful (oh...I guess they were deceived...).Maybe because you couldn't find the answer to the questions that those "intellectual" teachers had to ask about your faith...couldn't answer them for thirty years...and still can't, but now it doesn't matter....because..."it is foolishness to the natural man". Frankly, I don't know why you quit, or why you came back. I have difficulty accepting that you never believed before you left the Church the first time. I just haven't seen too many 6-year-olds say that the Gospel is a load of manure. First, asking questions or presenting an opposing point of view on a debate forum is not impertinent or rude. No one said he was a liar. Pet peeve: People who think that you saying they are wrong is calling them a liar.It does seem unlikely that if someone watches any news program or reads newspaper or any news magazine would not know that the belief of Christians is that Christ died and rose again to save us from hell. The thing we don't know about Jackel25 is if he did participate in society in any way. Again I think that declaring this as an influence for him to "believe" is pushing the envelope quite a bit. As I have said, more likely it is: More christians = more opportunity to interact. IOW Christian people, who are not necessarily evangelizing, probably had a greater influence than getting Christmas off from work every year.

This is degenerating into bickering again and in any case it's off topic. This is my last post on the subject. Again, you are dictating what a person takes INTO HIMSELF and MAKES PART OF HIS WORLDVIEW based on nothing but your own impressions of what COULD BE taken in. Information isn't belief, childhood experience isn't conviction. Jackal125 didn't even mention any church experience whatever and in my case its effect was as I have said, just about nil. The amount of time I spent thinking about God as a child is no more and in fact probably less, than I spent thinking about what I learned in school. OF COURSE I REMEMBER STUFF LIKE THAT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT MAKES UP A PERSON'S CONVICTIONS, NOT ROTE STUFF REMEMBERED FROM CHILDHOOD.You are way out of line. I've answered all your questions and you are just badgering me. I've never made any such claims. That's false Christianity that tries to lure people based on worldly fulfillment. Sometimes things get worse when you believe. Go talk to somebody else about that stuff, not me. For me it's always been a matter of what's true. I NEVER lived by it as a child, that's the whole point. It was just a rote thing my parents put me through, pleasant enough, but with little impact. They didn't live it and neither did I. Sure I learned some stuff but if it doesn't become part of your life it's meaningless and that's what both Jackal125 and I are talking about. You guys keep insisting that something you know nothing about had personal meaning to people you don't even know, who have denied it over and over and over. What would a 6 year old's belief amount to anyway? I suppose I believed some of it but it hardly amounted to genuine belief of the sort that really makes a Christian, just on the level of believing in Santa Claus, that goes away with time. Christian belief has to be lived. I certainly didn't live it. What gives you the right to be so rude as to claim you know anything about somebody else against what they tell you? I don't get it. I withdrew that idea in Message 102 and you've committed maybe ten of my pet peeves in this post, so consider it even. One of mine is people who have the arrogance to challenge other people's personal experience. I do believe that calling such personal statements wrong is out of order, to "debate" it is out of order, even if you know the person well, but certainly if you don't, and on the basis of nothing you know about the person himself but on mere general cultural observations of your own it becomes ludicrous in the extreme.And you have ignored MANY MANY points I have made in order to badger me over and over and over about something I have DENIED over and over and over. Give it up.

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It does seem unlikely that if someone watches any news program or reads newspaper or any news magazine would not know that the belief of Christians is that Christ died and rose again to save us from hell.

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You'll have to ask Jackal but I can assure you that simple message never got through to me and I have no idea where I might have heard it, I simply don't remember hearing it. There was even a street preacher I passed many times over a few years and I thought he was an amusing character but I don't remember a word he said. I felt sorry for the guy because he attracted some pretty mean hecklers but I didn't hang out to listen. You have to take my word for that.You can't put BELIEFS, PHILOSOPHICAL IDEAS, CONVICTIONS into a person's head just because they're out there in the environment for some to pick up if they are inclined to do so. I wasn't so inclined. But you guys keep committing this logical fallacy of stuffing people's heads with things they know never made a dent on them.

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The thing we don't know about Jackel25 is if he did participate in society in any way. Again I think that declaring this as an influence for him to "believe" is pushing the envelope quite a bit

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You are simply continuing to make up your own scenarios without regard to anything a person has to say for himself. He answered the question more than once and you and others here just refuse even to try to figure out the context in which he made it, insisting on imposing your own notions and rather aggressively too.

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As I have said, more likely it is: More christians = more opportunity to interact.

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THE FACT IS THAT SUCH INTERACTIONS AND CERTAINLY ANY TRANSFER OF BELIEF ON ACCOUNT OF ANY THAT EXISTED HAVE BEEN DENIED. LIVE WITH IT.OK I'm just repeating myself and so are you.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2005 08:47 PM

I didn't think it was off topic because I was trying to get a deeper understanding of what caused you to convert. I did get caught up in the childhood-influence thing.Perhaps it seems like badgering. I was just trying to put more detail on the point I was trying to make. You denied those possible influences at every turn. No support for your claim just outright denial. You give the impression that whatever you write must be the truth just because you say so and we just have to accept that. I accept that you think it is so, but not that your say-so makes it so.I was just trying to see if you would even consider that you might be mistaken in your belief that you were influenced by nothing before you chose Christianity this last time. However, you drew your line in the sand and never backed up despite the forces against you. That is admirable in situations dealing with your Christian beliefs. I don't think it is admirable in discussions that don't directly involve your Christian beliefs.Tilting at windmills, I guess.Ok fine....Then what was it that caused you to bother looking for God/spirituality in the first place? You said you read something about Hindu's saying that they knew God was real. Obviously they were mistaken since they weren't Christian.
Since you had denied Spirituality for 30(?) years, what made you suddenly decide that this article had any merit whatsoever? What do you believe prevented you from just saying "yeah right" and moving on?

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I think so therefore it is so....I thought "Name it and Claim it" went out in the 80's

And we can know those things, to a reasonable degree of acccuracy, by examination of the general culture in which they grew up. But you already do, you see. You already know at least some of what influenced me, from the relevant fact of my exposure to McDonalds. If I make a claim that I was not influenced by Ronald McDonald, you know that I'm lying, because you already know that I was exposed to that influence.C'mon. Let's not be ridiculous, ok?

I don't see in what way that was a personal attack. I'll grant you it was a touch snarky, but so what? That's what it takes to get through to Faith.Moreover I don't see in what way this debate is fruitless. Faith is making reasonable, if wrong, points; I'm responding to them point by point. The debate is heated, but certainly moving forward.

Very bold statements, Brian. Have you checked the newspapers lately(Don't answer that. It was a rhetorical question)? If you can't see what's with our world and only see the problems in it, you'll never find a solution. The same principle is with mastectomy. Breast cancer is not caused by having two breasts. This is the problem with our world todsy. We only se the bad in it that we can't focus on the truly amazing things God does for us in our brief lifespans here on Earth. The Lord knows whats best for us, even if we can't see it. The Bible says, "I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for good and not bad." He has plans for us, but we are to blinded by the tragedy that his antagonist places here on Earth to discourage us and keep us from believingf in his holy word. Beware that you do not doubt the Lord, for if you trust and never doubt, he will surely bring you out; he'll never fail you yet.

Stuck in a world of self-fulfilling prophecy specter. God cannot lose in your world, you will always have an excuse for Him.Of course we dont focus on the bad, and we shouldn't focus just on the good either. We should look at everything, and in doing so we need to conclude that God is completely useless or a complete barbarian.I can see what is wrong with our world, and a great deal of it is caused by religion. In fact, most of it is. I also have a solution, the funides should bugger off to their paradise and leave the rest of us alone to live out our lives in a safer world. Such as? Oh that breast cancer you were talking about, why did God create that I wonder, or should I focus on the knowledge he gave our doctors to help cure some cases?The thing that you don't see is that the world of God is a fantasy world created in your mind, and you are simply keeping this delusion going by making these excuses all the time. it is easy to do, we could convince ourselves that Sauron is coming back if we really put our minds to it.It must be great to have such faith, and good luck to you. I personally prefer reality, but that isnt every one's cup of tea.Cheers.Brian.

YOu weren't trying to get a deeper understanding of anything as you ignored most of what I said about my experience of conversion. You are simply trying to prove that I'm wrong, no matter what I say about my own experience. You really think YOU know what went on in another human being's experience against EVERYTHING that person tells you. That's objectionable. I reasoned my claim out extremely well. You simply have your own prejudice and you don't give a damn what anybody else has to say. AFTER I got back to believing on God, EVENTUALLY the little I'd picked up in childhood DID kick in and was ultimately helpful, but it still took me some two or three years to get through the Hindu-based universalist belief I started out with to a broad sort of Christianity and then from there to Bible-believing Christianity, and I don't see how this proves I was "influenced by the culture." I happen to KNOW I wasn't. I FOUGHT the Christian culture all the way. It was a supernatural event -- and only LATER did my very scanty Christian background enter into it.Why are you insisting that such experiences had more of an impact on me than on the others who had such experiences and became and stayed atheists or became Buddhists or something else?This is your own hobbyhorse. You just refuse to believe that I could have ended up Christian for other reasons than cultural influence. You REFUSE to. You will not address the Chinese and Indian Christians who had no Christian cultural influence, or all over the world, huge churches in Africa too for instance and maybe the biggest in the world in South Korea; you will not address the examples of my friends who like me had nominally Christian childhood experiences and went on to become atheists and have stayed atheists so far, which is the experience of an awful lot of educated people in this society; or the friend who became a serious practicing Buddhist out of an even more Christianity-soaked culture than my own. Why not? Only your own bullheaded prejudice.You are determined to badger me to death about it and never acknowledge one thing I've said in support of my position because you irrationally KNOW you are right and I'm wrong. That's ALL this comes down to. You don't give a rap what a person says about their experience UNLESS it conforms to your own preconceptions.

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However, you drew your line in the sand and never backed up despite the forces against you. That is admirable in situations dealing with your Christian beliefs. I don't think it is admirable in discussions that don't directly involve your Christian beliefs.

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Tilting at windmills, I guess.

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The tilter here is yourself. This whole cultural hypothesis is garbage that cannot be applied to specific individual experience but you are going to make me swallow it anyway aren't you?

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Ok fine....Then what was it that caused you to bother looking for God/spirituality in the first place? You said you read something about Hindu's saying that they knew God was real. Obviously they were mistaken since they weren't Christian.
Since you had denied Spirituality for 30(?) years, what made you suddenly decide that this article had any merit whatsoever? What do you believe prevented you from just saying "yeah right" and moving on?

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A Christian knows these things are God's own supernatural intervention, but I do try to keep the discussion to the experiential side of it: The usual Hindu based stuff is vague and talks about mystical categories I find meaningless and is not much concerned with God if at all. It often uses the term "Self" as the object of spiritual seeking, which NEVER appealed to me at all and seemed the epitome of psychological hoohah. These two or three books I was skimming through, on the other hand, specifically referred to God in terms of experiences people had of something external to themselves. They were describing something objectively real even if they were wrong about what it is -- but it was about an objective external God.What they were really talking about I don't know, but it was something external and real. It was really only the reality of the supernatural I believed in at that point, VERY far from the God of the Bible, but it became the basis of my intense explorations from that point on, and as I've said, the little I'd learned in church about God did figure at least in my idea of what I was seeking.I am worn out from arguing with you.

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You have to KNOW WHAT THE PARTICULAR INFLUENCES ON A PERSON WERE.

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And we can know those things, to a reasonable degree of acccuracy, by examination of the general culture in which they grew up.

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No you cannot. You can only know about INFLUENCES by knowing what was TAKEN INTO the person, not what existed outside the person. Not when people have told you that their experience was something apart from their culture. When you are faced with INDIVIDUALS you have to listen to what influenced THEM, you cannot impose your own views on them. Individuals do NOT always follow their culture. Many individuals OPPOSE their culture. I did for most of my life. Your reasoning is bankrupt.

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I'd have to know you better or interview you to find out about what influenced your feelings.

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But you already do, you see. You already know at least some of what influenced me, from the relevant fact of my exposure to McDonalds.

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I do not know from the fact that you lived next door to McDonald's to what extent you could be said to have been "exposed" to McDonalds. You don't seem to get that a person can grow up surrounded by things that make no sense to them, that don't interest them, that figure only as backdrop while their interests are focused elsewhere. You have to KNOW the person himself to know to what extent something had an actual influence, and in what direction that influence operated.You seem to be unable to distinguish between the inner life of human beings and the external world, a terrible handicap. I think you are so absurd you are beyond ridiculous. We disagree. Let's leave it there.

We give you a lot of slack and allow you many liberties we do not allow others, but there are limits. If you keep pushing those limits you will be sanctioned for your behavior.Stop calling people names.

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Most of what is wrong with our world is caused by religion. Interesting.I see, death is caused by religion.
Sickness is caused by religion.
Poverty is caused by religion.
Hatred and murder are caused by religion.
Rape and child molestation are caused by religion.
Greed and exploitation are caused by religion.
Hitler was caused by religion.
Stalin's murderous regime was caused by religion.Interesting. I never would have guessed.

Any point in stating the obvious?

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Poverty is caused by religion

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- Condoms are evil, don't use them!

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Hatred and murder are caused by religion.

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- We Jews own this land, No we muslims do - BLAM.

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Rape and child molestation are caused by religion.

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- It's ok I'm your priest - just don't tell anyone....

The obvious? Death is caused by religion? Without religion nobody would ever die? Interesting thnking there. And without religion nobody would ever get sick? That's obvious too huh? And nobody would ever commit murder or rape or harm children if there were no religion? Stalinism was based on religion rather than opposed to religion? News to me. That's quite a paradise you have in mind if only religion went away.**Sorry Faith I pressed the 'edit button' instead of the 'reply Button' and automatically went into admin mode, I do apologise and hope that I havent lost the gist of your reply. I am extremely sorry for being so careless.**This message has been edited by AdminBrian, 05-13-2005 06:21 PM