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Author
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Topic: The Clergy Project
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 81 of 151 (263759)
11-28-2005 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Omnivorous
11-28-2005 12:04 PM
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Re: Definition of Christian
I've decided to conclude that anyone who claims to be a Christian is a liar unless they gladly let me slap them around at least twice. Perhaps you are confusing Christian and Christ-like. They are separate characterizations and it would be most unwise of you to assume that all Christians are Christ like.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Omnivorous, posted 11-28-2005 12:04 PM | | Omnivorous has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 108 of 151 (264672)
12-01-2005 7:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 107 by iano
12-01-2005 6:44 AM
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Re: Definition of Christian
I know Faith is a Christian for example. Which brings us back to the question, "How can you recognize a Christian?"
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by iano, posted 12-01-2005 6:44 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 109 by iano, posted 12-01-2005 8:32 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 110 of 151 (264690)
12-01-2005 8:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 109 by iano
12-01-2005 8:32 AM
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Re: Definition of Christian
To say that there is something called Christians implies that there is some method of positively identifying one. If the method of recognition is unique to each individual, then it's pretty hard to say that Christians even exist. So the question remains, "How do you recognize a Christian?" edited to add a space This message has been edited by jar, 12-01-2005 11:43 AM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 109 by iano, posted 12-01-2005 8:32 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 112 by iano, posted 12-01-2005 12:59 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 113 of 151 (264859)
12-01-2005 6:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 112 by iano
12-01-2005 12:59 PM
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Re: Definition of Christian
If being a Christian is the result of an act of God which changes a persons position - with respect to how God views them - and it has nothing to do with his behaviour before or after this occurance -then there is no reason to think a person would be able to observe the fact that person is a Christian. Okay. Now we are making progress. So in your opinion, behavior means nothing. Once a Christian the murderer is still a Christian even if he continues to murder. You're suggestion that by becoming one you would recognize a Christian does not seem to work since many Christians here have questioned whether or not I am a Christian and have in fact asserted that they did recognize other individuals as Christians. So again, how would one recognize a Christian? For example, you said that you recognized Faith as a Christian. How?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 112 by iano, posted 12-01-2005 12:59 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by iano, posted 12-02-2005 5:23 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 116 of 151 (265048)
12-02-2005 12:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 114 by iano
12-02-2005 5:23 AM
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Re: Definition of Christian
Sorry but I still do not understand what you are saying. First, bringing in salvation means nothing. There is no way to determine whether or not someone is saved, nor can salvation be observed. It is just trying to change the subject. Let me step back and try to see if we can get anywhere at all. The point of this discussion relates to those Priests who signed the petition. Several people have questioned whether or not the signators are real Christians. The rest of the hundred or so posts in this thread have been attempts to try to see if there is a way to determine if someone is a Christian. So how can you tell if someone is a Christian? In your final paragraph you get around to addressing the question. Kinda.
I also look at her deeds. What type deeds? What is it that can be observed?
Or rather the motivation behind them. So it is not what is done but why it is done? How do you determine why something was done?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by iano, posted 12-02-2005 5:23 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by iano, posted 12-03-2005 9:47 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 130 of 151 (266019)
12-06-2005 9:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 117 by iano
12-03-2005 9:47 AM
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Actually I may agree with iano
Just to recap. I can see no way that a non-Christian can tell if a person is a Christian. I agree. Other than the fact that someone claims to be a Christian, I see no way they could be identified. So when the signers of the document in the OP say
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth. I see no option other than accepting that they are, as they say, Christians.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by iano, posted 12-03-2005 9:47 AM | | iano has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 134 of 151 (266039)
12-06-2005 11:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 132 by iano
12-06-2005 9:31 AM
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Re: Actually I may agree with iano
By all means make a personal decision but with no objective way to know one way or the other it is in fact a 50/50 toss up. But there most certainly is an objective way to tell. They said they are Christians.
You have the option of saying "I don't know". It seems to me to be the most honest and balanced of the two. Why and how so? You said earlier that to know a Christian you must be a Christian. I happen to be a Christian. Therefore, according to your logic as you have laid out, I have the ability to know that they are Christians.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by iano, posted 12-06-2005 9:31 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 135 by iano, posted 12-06-2005 12:50 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 136 of 151 (266068)
12-06-2005 12:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 135 by iano
12-06-2005 12:50 PM
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Re: Actually I may agree with iano
iano, I am only using what you said. You have said that to know a Christian one must be a Christian. Did you or did you not say that?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 135 by iano, posted 12-06-2005 12:50 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 140 by iano, posted 12-07-2005 8:25 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 142 of 151 (266350)
12-07-2005 10:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 140 by iano
12-07-2005 8:25 AM
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Re: Actually I may agree with iano
Sure. If someone claims to be a Christian, then He is a Christian.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 140 by iano, posted 12-07-2005 8:25 AM | | iano has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 150 of 151 (266816)
12-08-2005 12:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 147 by iano
12-08-2005 6:34 AM
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Re: Actually I may agree with iano
I've heard of 'you are what you eat' but 'you are what you claim you are' is a new one for me. If I claimed to be a surgeon, does that make me a surgeon - or are the criteria I must fulfill in order to really be a surgeon. Assuming you think that claiming surgeon status to be insufficient, could you draw out the distinction as to how a person can be something simply by claiming to be it and how the other can't but needs to fulfill certain criteria. Perhaps you do not read what you write. The comparison between being a Christian and being a surgeon is silly. Surgeons actually have to do something, have some capabilities, follow a code of ethics. But based on what you've said in this thread, that's not true of Christians. According to you, being a Christian does not depend on behavior before or after becoming said. It has nothing to do with what a Christian does, can do, will do, or is seen to do. No, a surgeon is something different, but to be a Christian, all that's needed is profession.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 147 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 6:34 AM | | iano has not replied |
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