The rise of faith schools

Faith,I am agnostic but support your position on schooling 100%.I think it's a great benefit to have freedom of choice for schools for more than just religious reasons:
1. Competition makes for better quality and effort (and lower cost)
2. Faith-based schools are more likely to produce honest, ethical, law-abiding citizens (this is based on what peer pressure is exposed to the children)
3. One method/standard, especially from the government, is not conducive to continued improvement. It's just not evolutionary!

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I have to pay for every church in my town. My property taxes are higher because those churches don't pay property taxes.

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That would be an interesting "trade" for Congress to consider:
Make churches pay property tax, and in return, allow vouchers so that church-goers can choose where to spend the money for their kids education.

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Of course you can read their scriptures, but how will you be able to judge their claims to truth? Having a strong point of view gives you a standard for judging. If your point of view is wrong, there is nothing to keep you from recognizing its errors since I'm advocating exposure to many different points of view through the one.

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As a fellow citizen, I like folks who communicate a strong point of view to their kids regarding right and wrong. That is more likely to make those kids good fellow citizens.For religious teachings, I have no problem with the indoctrination from a strong point of view, either. Freedom of religion and the rights of citizens grant us that right. As long as the practice of that religion does not infringe on my rights (such as those who would want to sacrifice my chickens to some deity), I am fine with it.For knowledge and skills of reading, writing and math, it's hard for me to imagine how a point of view is relevant.This brings us to science in general and biology in particular. I do think that the indoctrination of creationism limits kids in this field of study and in critical thinking. To say that creationists present a knowledgable and fair presentation of evolution is false. In a trial, it's like granting the defense lawyer the additional role of prosecutor. Would the outcome be anything other than not guilty?Even though there are fewer scientists/engineers coming from faith-based education, and this weakens our country (IMO), I think the value of faith-based education in generating quality human beings outweighs my objections.In the words of public school English-as-a-second-language teacher Ruby Rios's students: "We gots two stay together and protest against the new law that wants two be passed against all immigrants. We gots two show the U.S. that they aint (expletive) with out us (sic)."

You can send your kids to private school AND pay taxes for their spot (vacant) in public school. You have a choice, because your economic situation allows it.But, how about the economically-disadvantaged? (who probably need a boost in kids education anyway, because parents are likely not well-educated to assist them)
Why not give them more opportunity to make a choice?Think of it this way: It's MY money (taxes paid)! I should have a choice in where to spend most/some of that education money for my kids. If I choose to send my kid to public school, then I should pay that entity more than just the overhead cost that everyone (including singles) pay.This message has been edited by ThingsChange, 04-07-2006 05:09 PM

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If it costs more when you send children to public schools, then society will have created incentives that encourage illiteracy and ignorance

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Did you leave out a word? That makes no sense.

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You seem to be saying that it should cost you more if you do send your child to public school than if you don't. I was commenting on the implications.

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Are you saying the implications of incentives for private/home schooling would be encourages and therefore bad results?
If so, then we just disagree. I believe that evolution leads to better product, and that competition (as in the evolutionary models) is a primary driver of change for the better.

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Home schooling is usually a bad idea...

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Not from the results that I have seen.

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...such encouragement could lead to a deterioration in education of the citizenry.

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Nonsense. It would likely be some bell curve with some worse, some exceptionally better, and most better overall. Competition is better and is proven. Socialistic policy leads to overall decreasing quality, not competition.

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That's a misunderstanding of evolution. There is no standard of "better" that directs evolution.

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No, you are misunderstanding. I am not advocating some beauracracy that "directs" education (like you are). I am advocating freedom to experiment and find out what works and doesn't work.
You are assuming public schooling has adapted to best fit. Far from it. It's a disaster, and doesn't meet special needs. That's a big reason why many people pull their kids from school to home school them.

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Look at the news reports on the TV networks. At one time they were run as benevolent dictatorships, paid for by the entertainment programming. Now they are faced with the competition of the market. They have become far worse than they were.

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I am not sure they were ever that good. In any case, they adapted to the business environment. But guess what? More competition has led to more balance (witness internet, Fox News and radio talk shows to get out the news and analyze what is happening).

RE: My assertion that faith-based education creates better quality folksI base that claim on:
1. My own anecdotal evidence with people of faith
2. From what police officers have told me about the profile of the types of people that commit crime and who are in the jails
3. Common sense ... they teach good values and have an incentive not to be selfishThe big exception to this, of course, are the radical Muslims !
So, I do not claim that all faiths are good for our society.

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Privatization of the school system is a bad idea.

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I did not say privatize the education system.
I said give the parents a choice where to spend some of their tax money.For example: If the tax dollars for education are $16K per child, as in Washington DC, then let the government keep $4K for overhead shared costs for "the public good" and allow the parents $12K to spend as a voucher for either public or private schooling (including offsetting home school expenses for materials and standardized testing).

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Network TV news used to actually be about investigative journalism.

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There is still news oriented to investigative journalism. The problem is and has always been:
1. The choice of events to investigate & present as the news
2. Selective facts and hearsay to present for the story chosen
3. The wording of the headlines (for sound-bite readers/listeners)
4. The choice of words to describe the people and the events (example: using "right-wing" as a prefix)Walter Cronkite was never neutral.

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That's why the best informed people are the ones listening to non-profit outlets like NPR.

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Good joke. Don't let the low monotone voices fool you. They are hardly non-biased. See the list above.

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Mainstream TV news is far, far, far more conservative and lacking in real content and analysis than ever before.

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Nonsense about your claim as "conservative". All you need to do to disprove your statement is to listen to Rush Limbaugh and see what the news people did not report, or how biased they were in reporting it. Regardless of what you may think of him, Rush does a good job of exposing media bias. AdminPD: Edit to make quote box functional.This message has been edited by AdminPD, 04-10-2006 10:04 AM

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It sounds as if you are more concerned with pushing a political ideology, than with the best interests of the children and the community.

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Nwr, nice attempt at spin.
But, it is you who are pushing an ideology, since you promote a single source education instead of choice and competition. You hardly have the best interests of the children in mind when you want to force them into an inferior education system (and an environment of social ills in a number of cases).

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Where did I ever advocate bureaucracy?

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You advocate bureaucracy when you advocate the public school system.

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Where private schools look better, it is often because they get to cherry-pick their students.

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Actually, that is a good practice. Imagine if colleges did not have the same right. If you give parents a choice, then if they did a good job with their kids, they can enroll them in a good environment for learning. For kids who need special education, some specialized schools can help. For parents whose kids are a negative influence, they can remain in public schools where they (and we as voters) can figure out how to deal with them.

Time to turn the table.
What is your source of information that faith-based schools produce worse kids than public education? (since you want to establish a blanket national policy)

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If what you are saying is true, though, shouldn't we find a scarcity of religiously-raised people in our prisons?

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No, since that is not the metric for a faith-based schools debate, which is the topic here.
You should find that a smaller percentage of students who attended faith-based schools go to prison than the same metric for prisoners who attended public schools.

Limbaugh does not invent the writings and voice recordings replayed on his show that demonstrate the hypocrisy of the politicians. These are verifiable and undeniable facts. I am not sure what other facts you claim he misrepresents. If you would apply what is called "critical thinking skills" to his program, then you, too, can filter the BS from the facts. Try it.The key point which you missed (again, it must be your critical thinking skills need improvement) is that there are more sources for the news, and the competition exposes balance. We have always had news sources with incorrect facts now and then, but there is clearly a liberal bias in the ABC, NBC, CBS, NPR sources. If you just listen to those, you only get one point of view.

Good article, even if the reporter had an agenda.
Sounds like the problem schools need better quality oversight like the successful Catholic and Lutheran schools mentioned in the article.One of the difficult things for parents is to evaluate a school and teachers (whether the school is private or public). This is why standardized tests administered by independent parties with results published is one good means for judging where to put your kids.Improving schools is a challenge, and usually it takes some time to get things under control. For example: In Houston, the public schools are being measured by a standard test called Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills (TAKS). Initially, there was resistance. Then the tests showed bad results in some cases. Those schools & teachers were put under pressure. Some reponded by cheating and some starting teaching to just pass the test, instead of the subject proper. See the following link for more detail: shortened linkThis message has been edited by AdminJar, 04-10-2006 10:54 AM

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No, he just uses writings and voice recordings way out of context. That's a form of misrepresentation.

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I disagree. The quotes are long and the context is clear and is in line with what is reported on news channels (since most are extracted from the news sources)
So, you must admit that the news takes things out of context?