Eternal and Forever: Unending or Just a Very Long Time?

I would like to take an analytical look at the meanings of the Hebrew word "olam" and the Greek word "aion/aionios" and whether they were actually used by the authors in the Bible to mean "without end" at the time they were written and in the context of their individual books.The article entitled "Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation made an interesting presentation that the words translated as "forever and ever" don't really present the meaning of "without end."So can a word that means an age which has an end: also be used to mean a time without end? Also in this article entitled Olam/Aion/Aionian/Aionias (by Mike Burke), Burke and others suggest that the usage of olam/aionios may deal more with quality than duration.This verse gives the impression of quality and not unending. I don't read Hebrew or Greek, so any help in that department is greatly appreciated. I realize that given the various styles of writing in the Bible and the large expanse of time, it is unreasonable to assume that words weren't used creatively or that the meanings couldn't have changed over time.I look forward to learning something new.This discussion is not about faith or belief.
It is analytical look at the words that are translated as eternal and forever.Edited by purpledawn, : Reworked OP

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I reworked the OP.Bible Study or The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy would be appropriate forums.This is not a faith or belief discussion.Thanks

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Perhaps forever merely means the consummation of an age.

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I would say that aion means age, which does have an end. We just don't know when that is.I'm using Crosswalk.com with the NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon to search for verses and meanings.These are the verses in Matthew that use the noun form of "aion". None of them are translated as forever. They speak of the current age (world) or the end of the age. So the verse you shared would reasonably be the end of the age and not the physical world. The author's audience probably understood it that way. Even in our own usage of our word forever we don't necessarily mean unending. We use it to emphasize a very very long period of time with no specified end. We exaggerate for effect.Then we have the noun, "aion", used as an adjective, "aionios", which is translated as eternal in Matthew. We have eternal fire, eternal life, and eternal punishment. So if we want to avoid using a noun as an adjective the the phrase "eternal God" would be written God of the age(s) as shown in the article mentioned in Message 1. So if we do the same thing to eternal fire we have fire of the age(s), eternal life we have life of the age(s), and eternal punishment we have punishment of the age(s).So then the question is, how does this impact how we understand the verses?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Ephesians 3:21 is one of the verses brought up in the article I mentioned in Message 1 entitled "Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation.If a better translation is "the age of ages" then the KJV translation is rather misleading considering the similar expressions used in the Bible. Ephesians 3:21 translations If that is an appropriate translation then "age of ages" seems to be referring to an ultimate age or timeframe.

My Hebrew teacher to the rescue.

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concordances provide a list of how specific words are rendered in english, NOT what they mean.

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Good to know. Since I know how words can be used in many different ways even contrary to their literal meaning, I'm uncomfortable having to rely on a concordance; but it's all I have.

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i'll have a look at the article, but i hope that's not what he means.

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The idea of quality, I think, is more related to the usage of aion as an adjective in the NT. I haven't had time to sit down and investigate other usages in the NT.

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— (olam) is the hebrew word for "world," as in — — "the whole world." (unlike it means the planet as a whole, not just a country or the physical land).

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So it means the planet itself or the planet and its inhabitants as a whole? Of course if the inhabitants are gone, then not much to have a covenant with.

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olam serves like an adjective but it's really part of the noun-phrase and the two function as a single word. so it means (as best as i can explain) "to be a convenant to the world." and thss, "for a covenant for ever."

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Or to be a covenant as long as the planet exists?So it does really deal with a very long period of time, not a time without end.

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like we really mean eternity when we tell someone we'll love them forever.

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I looked up eternal in the etymology dictionary. Even our own word doesn't mean without end.So given what you have told me about olam, when the OT was translated into the LXX, they used the word aion, which supposedly means age. From my viewpoint that would show that the translators didn't understand the usage of olam to mean time without end. Is this a logical conclusion?Concerning the Greek word aion and the quality issue. I found this article which also mentions that using "aion" as an adjective describes the quality of the noun used. I couldn't find "olam" being used as an adjective the way that "aion" is in the NT.The only verse I found in the OT that was translated "eternal God" is in Deuteronomy. But the word used for eternal is "qedem".I guess the question is: When and how did our English word eternal come to be understood to mean without end?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

After what Arach has stated, I understand where they were going with the noun, but the adjective form is still a puzzlement.This site entitled The Hidden Aeonian Realm also brings out the idea that as an adjective it doesn't describe a length of time. Although this article presents the idea of that the type is hidden or spiritual. Something not of this world. Not sure if I agree with this thought yet. Still working on it.

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The noun "Aeon" in Greek means 'century', i.e. a finite period of time. However, the adjective "Aeoni /os /a /o" means, literally, 'through the centuries'. The more prosaic translations are 'eternal', 'neverending' or 'everlasting'.

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But if the noun means a finite period of time how does it then mean the complete opposite as an adjective? I've been trying to think of similar situations in english, but keep getting interrupted. Even this meaning is finite, still undefined, but has an end. I can see where the adjective would carry the meaning of longlasting, but not unending.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

So it does mean a very long or undetermined time, but not a time without an end. The end is just beyond our measure.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

But there are instances where it is used that we know the situation is not without end. During natural disasters the waves do cross over the beach. The fire in Gehenna no longer burns.I did find two verses where a different word is used to mean without end. Interesting that this word isn't used concerning humans. scholarsAidios

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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IMHO, when you see either of the adjectives in Greek text you can safely assume that the author describes something of unending duration.

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Matthew 18:8 uses the adjective "aionios" which is rightly translated as 'eternal'. The fact that the fire no longer burns has nothing to do with the writer's intention to convey a meaning of everlasting.

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IOW, from the writer's view at the moment of writing, the fire or noun of choice would never end or at least they don't feel it will end in their lifetime.Since we have seen the end of some things deemed eternal, their use of eternal isn't necessarily a factual statement.So we really don't know if they meant it factually from knowledge or just a figure of speech. My guess is figure of speech.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz