"Evidence and Faith"

That, my friend, is a subjective answer. Yes, I am aware of that. So we agree that prayer is good, and I should not be addressing that with my Pastor. It's not, scientifically speaking. My church and I, are not trying to sell prayer.
Prayer should not be for sale.But I get your point, and I have always been on the look out, when something is for sale.I have addressed this many times in my church also.One point was the Elijah list. It seemed to conatain many valid prophets, but their emails to us were chock full of advertisments. I removed my email from the list, because I personally couldn't take all the "Christian marketing".What the real motives behind all this, I am not sure, but I don't think anyone was getting rich from it. I still however couldn't take it.Thanks for all your input.

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While buddhism may be the most peaceful religion when it comes to war, it is not war-free.

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There is no perfect religion nator.

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I never said there was a perfect religion.You said that we might be able to determine which was the best one by seeing which one "bore the best fruit".Buddhism produces the most peaceful, happiest societies, so if you consider the most peace and the most happiness to be the best fruit, then Buddhism is the best religion.

We may have been talking about churches, or religions, but when asked about belief validity, my answer was about an indiviual stand point, not a religious one.I don' think I could possibly judge the differences between all religions. Espcially when I am not a fan of religion, evn though I can be described as religious.If we love God, and love others, how can we go wrong?

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We may have been talking about churches, or religions, but when asked about belief validity, my answer was about an indiviual stand point, not a religious one.

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I don't think I could possibly judge the differences between all religions. Espcially when I am not a fan of religion, evn though I can be described as religious.

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Religions have individual adherents. There are something close to 400 million Buddhists worldwide.There are regions and nations which are predominantly Buddhist, so it is certainly possible to discover something about how Buddhists treat other people, how they feel about life, etc. We can do this for Muslim, Christian, and other regions and coutries, too.Buddhists are the most happy. They are also the most peaceful.They bear the best fruit, if you think peace and happiness are good fruits.

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If we love God, and love others, how can we go wrong?

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"I hit you because I love you" is something many a battered woman and child has heard.I bring this up to point out that "loving others" is a wide-open action. Many people have been killed, tortured or imprisoned in the name of the Christian god, and those doing the killing, torturing, and imprisoning truly believed they were doing so out of love and a desire to save souls.So, to say "love others" isn't saying anything.Well, Buddhists don't "love God", because they don't believe a personal god exists.Yet, they report being the most happy and are the most non-violent people on Earth.Perhaps "loving god" isn't important.

Yea, but then we get into the "true Christian" discussion. I can't really say. Again, we get into the true Christian discussion.If you want to measure Christianity by what people do, you will never think Christianity is good. But if there is a devil, he will attack what is most threatening to him. Nator, forget about the rest of the world, I said to you, because I know you know what love is.

rR wrote: I agree. The results clearly show that prayer is ineffective for healing, but what people infer from that finding is indeed subjective, and open to multiple interpretations, which is fine. We do. They sorta do. Would people contribute money to your church if they thought that prayer didn’t have any effect beyond the person praying? I’m not sure. Something being “for sale” is a sliding scale, from the open “for sale by owner” extreme on one end to the “supporting an institution with anonymous donations of time and service” on the other. Not all for sale scenarios are bad, but the idea of a sale does fit in there in some ways. I had never heard of them, but I googled it and found their site. OUCH. Scary stuff, both the prophets and the profits are scary. I’m sure that at least some of the promoters of that site really believe that stuff, but I’m also pretty sure that some people are indeed getting rich off from it (and that many probably fit into both groups). What to others here think? here’s the site:The Elijah List - Prophetic Words, News, and PropheciesHave a fun weekend everyone!-Equinox

For that particuylar study only, for those people praying, and those people recieving.You see, my problem with that is that the bible, I think, only tells two different ways in which we can "test" the Lord, and prayer is not one of them. I think they would, as people in our church do not give money expecting prayer in return.
People give money, because we recognize that the money is from God, so we are giving it back to Him. That is what we are supposed to feel in our hearts.
Even when I became a member of the church, they told me, it was not a requirement to give 10% of my income.My Pastor regulary gives a tithe challenge. This is one way to test the Lord, according to the bible. If you give 10% of your earnings, God will pour His blessings out on you. So my Pastor says give 10% for 3 months, and if you do not experience God's blessings, you can have your money back.I personally have experienced nothing but blessings since tithing, I am never short of money.As far as the Elijah list goes, there are some good things about it too, it isn't all bad. I have read some very uplifting things, and seen some prophecies come true. I just can't handle the advertising.
Some of the prophecies there, parellel prophecies exoerienced in our own church, another subjective experience that helps my faith.

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Yea, but then we get into the "true Christian" discussion.

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No, not really.That is simply a meaningless, silly, useless reductionist argument and the only reason it is brought up is when the debater wants to avoid the debate.In some places, there are a lot of Buddhist temples, and have been for thousands of years.Lots and lots of local people are observed praying at those Buddhist temples, and have done for thousands of years.The majority of the people in those areas, if asked, say that they are Buddhist.It is not unreasonable to conclude, then, that many, if not most of the people in that area are Buddhist.[rant]Why the fuck are you making me jump through hoops to get you to accept this, rat, for fuck's sake?[/rant]

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I can't really say.

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Oh? Suddenly you have no opinion on if peace or happiness qualify as "good fruit"? Gimme a break, rat. Jesus is referred to as the "Prince of Peace", isn't he?Something tells me you just don't want to admit that another belief system other than your own is better at delivering what it promises.Tell me, rat, if peace and happiness are not "good fruits", then what are, according to you?

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Again, we get into the true Christian discussion.

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If you want to measure Christianity by what people do, you will never think Christianity is good.

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LOL!How else am I supposed to measure any religion other than by what people do?That is exactly what "knowing them by their fruit" means, isn't it?"Their fruit" = "what they do". [quote]But if there is a devil, he will attack what is most threatening to him.[/qs]Er, huh? Irrelevant to our discussion.We were talking about measuring beliefs by the quality of their "fruit".

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Nator, forget about the rest of the world, I said to you, because I know you know what love is.

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Again, irrelevant.We were talking about measuring belief systems by their "fruit".

Yes really. I will not judge a religion by the actions of it's people, especially when they clearly do not follow their own religious scripts. Of course peace and happiness are good fruits, that's not what I was refering too.I just don't think that peace and happiness are the end-all to good fruit.Some other things might include, true love, helping others, non-religious spirits, etc.I am also not sure about what you say: "delivering what it promises".
Just what does Buddism promise? I am not an expert on it.
Just what does Christianity promise? In your words. By reading their religious texts.
People will always be people, even without religion, I am sure of that. It's not irrelevant. This is why I think you are not totally in tune to just what Christianity is, or more precisly, what Jesus was teaching us.Listen, the devil, for the most part, does not present himself as a bad guy. And when I say devil, it is a figurative term. It can mean anything you want.I have tons of peace and happiness....and LOVE, in my beliefs. My only disappointment is in the ways of the world.I am convinced that the only proof there is of Christianity is God's Holy Spirit.I really hope you get to experience it one day, or maybe you have, but just deny it, I don't know.But the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of truth. Buddism, is not the truth, this I know. Anything beyond that, then I am judging people in way I do not want to be judged.If the devil can keep you from the truth, and in a state of bliss, the so be it. This is a possibility.I am not condemning people here, I am just stating what I think.Perhaps we shouldn't even be getting into this, as this is way beyond what we can discuss here.If you want to measure someone by their fruits, look at Mother Theresa.And just for the record, I do not think that Buddist are bad people or anything like that.

Religious texts are pretty much worthless (except as literature).Religious texts may or may not be the source of somebody's faith, but the only evidence we have of their faith is their actions. People can claim all the faith in the world, but if they don't act, their "faith" is a sham.

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Right, so that is why I do not use people to measure religion.

People are the only way to "measure" religion with any kind of objectivity. Peoples's actions are the evidence of their faith.

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Not completely.Peoples actions are evidence of how they interpret things, and what they think is wrong or right, and evidence of their faith. But faith is a subjective thing, not an objective one.It is not evidence of what Jesus said. Jesus's actions are evidence of how He wants us to live.There is not many people in this world, worthy of leading by example.MY own faith is a perfect example. I am far from being like Jesus, yet I desire too. My faith is subjective, and an evolving thing.Of course my actions will have influence on what people think about Christianity, but it is not the measuring stick at all. I believe the only thing that is going to convert people to believe, is God Himself.If I was to go on what I see in Christianity, I would not be Christian.

That's what I'm saying: You can't see people's faith and you can't trust what they claim to believe. The only solid evidence we have about what's "inside" another human being is how he behaves on the outside. I couldn't care less about "converting" anybody to Christianity. (In fact, if anybody asked for my advice, I'd say don't convert to Christianity.)The only "conversion" that counts is an improvement in your behaviour. If you become a Satanist and treat your fellow man better, that's a good thing.

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Or Fred Hollows, an atheist, eye surgeon, who personally treated hundreds of cataract sufferers through outback Australia, Asia and Africa and who set up cataract lens factories in the Third World to help thousands more.