"Evidence and Faith"

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If you want to measure someone by their fruits, look at Mother Theresa.

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Or, look at predominantly Buddhist areas of the world, and look at how much more peaceful and happy they are than people are in other places where a different religion has been practiced.I mean, the central theme of Buddhism is liberation from suffering.If it is OK to judge Mother Theresa by her fruits, why is it not OK to judge Buddhists as a group for their fruits?

You don't do the converting. God converts you. When this happens, if you accept it, there is a noticable change in your behaivor, but this doesn't make you Jesus Christ.If we are to look for an example of what Christianity is, then we can only look at Jesus.

I never said it wasn't ok.

As I said, I couldn't care less about the so-called "conversion". That's what I'm saying: The behaviour is what's noticeable. If the behaviour doesn't change, the "conversion" isn't real. Well, no. We can't look at Jesus, because He isn't here - at least not in any visible way. The only thing we can "look at" is His representatives.

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Think of this way, religion is a red dress. Who's it going to look better on, Rosanna, or Angelina Jolie?It is not religions fault if people don't get it right.I am sure there are many more factors that go into what makes Buddist peaceful people.Doesn't Mike Tyson practice buddism?

Why not?If people follow wrong teachings, don't the teachings (and the teachers) bear some responsibility?That's why I've been saying that the only way you can tell what's on the inside of people is by how it's reflected on the outside. You can't see the teachings themselves - you can only see the results of the teachings. You can't see the religion itself - you can only see the results ofthe religion.

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quote:

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I never said it wasn't ok.

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All you've done in this thread is tell me that we can't judge groups of religious people by their "fruits".You've just contradicted yourself.

Mother Theresa, is not a group.
I would examine her, because she bears good fruits, and then see how she interprets what is written.Just like looking up to Jesus.I mean it is plainly obvious, to me anyway, when people are not following what is written.What do we blame, the religous texts, or the people? That's just it, the teachings aren't wrong, the people are.If people murder, does that mean the law is no good, when it is clearly against the law?

Suppose somebody does X and claims that the Bible teaches X. If X is wrong, then the teaching of X is wrong too.You can't just claim that X is not what the Bible "really" teaches. That's just one example.Look at the persecution of homosexuals. Some people claim that the Bible teaches homosexuality is wrong, and they use that "teaching" as an excuse for persecution, like denying the right to marry.There's your bad fruit.Is people's interpretation of the Bible wrong? Or is the Bible just wrong about homosexuals?

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No, their "claims" have to be substanciated.
Just like in science, and the scientific method.People can claim whatever they want, then they have to be proven right.
(Did I get that right Percy?) I can, and I do. There is no denying that according to the bible, that God does not favor Homosexuality, but then again, He does not favor many things, that WE ALL DO.So Jesus said, he who is without sin, can throw the first stone.So all these people that take what the bible says, and clearly use them out of context, and ignore everything else it says, are wrong, not the bible itself.Not only that, but the bible is not the end all to how Jesus wants us to be. It is only text to make you aware of what Jesus really did for us, and continues to do. Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to be guides in our lives.Many people who read the bible, and claim to be Christian, can't even answer the question "what is the Holy Spirit?"Why then should we listen to anything else they have to say on the bible?I can't believe that I am even having to explain all this to you.If science makes a mistake, and kills one of my relatives with bad information, is science then bad too? The people doing it?Is all of science bad, because people like Dr.Emoto, and spirit chasers are full of it?Or is science just 75% good 25% bad? I know the first statement is true, the second statement is really up to each individual to decide. It is each individual that will have to stand before God, and explain themselves, and their actions.People know what they do in their hearts to be wrong or right, I don't a crap what they say on the outside, it is totally irrelevant when it comes to God.To me, it is very possible, and probable that many homosexuals feel what they are doing is right.Jesus was slain on the cross, and what did He say as He was dying? Forgive them Father, because they know not what they do.I want to be like Jesus.

But how do you know that the Bible isn't wrong?If people who believe in the Bible do wrong, how do we know whether their interpretation is wrong or the Bible itself is wrong? "Science" can't make mistakes. It can't be "bad". Science is a method.What I've been talking about is the methodology of deciding what's right and wrong. If you decide right and wrong based on a book, you're letting the authors of that book make up your mind for you. It doesn't matter whether or not you let some Holy Spook tell you what it "really" means. You're still parking your brain at the door.We can assess the usefulness of the book based on how believers in the book behave. If they do what is clearly wrong, and they do it because the book tells them to (or the Holy Spook tells them to), then we can conclude that the book (or the Spook) is wrong.

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With that question, you have just moved the goal posts.That is a separate issue from whether people interpret things right. You can read it for yourself. You can study it for years, to try and learn.Please try to remember, we are not talking about slicing cheese the right way here. It can take years to try and understand it, and then, I believe we still won't get it right.The things that Jesus talks about, are extremely deep issues, that most of will take years to learn. Well the same can be said of loving God, and loving others. I don't think the bible tells what is right and wrong in the eyes of God, in order for us to enforce it on others. It is so we can get closer to God.You can try these things, and if they are correct, then your own mind can come into alignment with the book, and with God. You are not parking your brain at the door, you still have to see for yourself what it tells you, and then go from there.I think the real problem, is the people teaching it. Absolutely not. The spectrum of behavior amoung believers is far too wide to make such a decision. And if you read the bible, it will even come into agreement with this thought, and warn you about it. The book doesn't tell you to do anything to anyone else, except love them.As far as the "holy spook" goes:
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.The book warns of false prophets, and that you will know them by their deeds. Clearly this is not a black and white issue.Judging the bible, or what Jesus was trying to teach us, by judging those that claim are from Him, is a huge mistake. I see it a lot in this forum.And for a good reason. I feel more people are hurt by religion, or more precisly, the people doing religion, than anyone else. I know, I was one of them. It took me years, but I later found out, that I was wrong, and then wanted to find out for myself.I used to think like you.

Not at all. It's exactly the same issue. If people do wrong, it could be caused by them misinterpreting their source or by their source being wrong.It's back to simple logic: If the conclusion is wrong, it could be because the reasoning is wrong or because a premise is wrong. You could study it for eleven lifetimes and if it's wrong you still won't learn anything from it. I don't think it has anything to do with "getting closer to God". I think it's about getting along with our fellow humans.For that matter, I don't think it's about what's right or wrong "in the eyes of God" either. It's about what works in our day-to-day lives with our fellow humans.All this "getting closer to God" mumbo-jumbo isn't very productive. Not at all. You want to claim that the "good" end of the spectrum comes from the Bible but the "bad" end comes from misunderstanding the Bible. Somebody else might say that the "bad" end comes from the Bible.Since there is a braod spectrum of behaviour among believers, it seems reasonable to conclude that the Bible doesn't determine anybody's behaviour - i.e. it isn't useful for molding behaviour. I used to think like you. I was about fourteen at the time.

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That is a moved goal post. You've added the word "or".You never agreed with me that people could be mis-interpreting wrong. You blamed it totally on the text. Now it is either or.Would you agree there are "good" Christians and "bad" Christians? Absolutely. But that has nothing to do with my point. It's both.We can make an attempt at getting closer to humans. But the true closeness, and understanding of others, is once God shares His Holy Love with you, and enables you to see people partially the way He sees them. Then you can share that true love with them.Some people are born with this gift already, but we all can benefit from God's love for us. That is a subjective statement.
In many cases getting closer to God can bring you away from people. That is where the misinterpretation begins. Isn't this in agreement with me then? Isn't this what I have been trying to say?
If the bible doesn't determine anyone's behavior, then the bible is not responsible. Only God can do that, with a concerted effort from the believer. I was 8.

No. I've used the word "or" ever since I introduced the possibility of the Bible being wrong in Message 189. I never disagreed with that point either. I only brought up the additional possibility that the text itself is wrong. Not at all. No. That's just more mumbo-jumbo. The only way you can "know" what other people "see" and "understand" is by their actions. You have no way of knowing whose ear God is whispering in. You seemed to be crediting the Bible (and the Holy Spirit) with people's good behaviour but exempting it (and the Holy Spirit) from responsibility for their bad behaviour.Some people who read the Bible (and listen to the Holy Spirit) have good behaviour but some people who read the Bible (and listen to the Holy Spirit) have bad behaviour. So it seems that neither the Bible nor the Holy Spirit is a reliable source of good behaviour.Once again, we can only know about people's "hearts" by the deeds that they do. There's no clear correlation between "goodness" and having the Bible in your heart or the Holy Spirit in your spleen.

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