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Author Topic:   Is my rock designed?
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3240 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 61 of 219 (485405)
10-08-2008 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by anglagard
10-08-2008 1:39 AM


Re: Unnatural? or just sloppy posting?
anglagard: Please feel free to elaborate. Are you saying that such "DNA automation" is inherently unknowable or are you claiming to be the judge of what I personally do or do not know?

TONY: There is 3.2 billion base pair of coded information in the DNA programming. It is said no one can count to one billion in his life time. Never mind studying it and understand superhuman software of 3.2 billion written code (when you get it down on paper...if).

There are so many things going on at the same time in the body it is hard to understand any of it. Now talking to you, based on your post, you got a long way to go before you and your wife ever hand build any child from scratch. If you did, you would be the first.

anglagard: "How is a crystal more disordered than a sandy beach? What is your definition of complexity? Does complexity mean disorder or order?"

TONY: There is no molecular machinery with complex programming in crystals or rocks, just raw basic material without the bio-molecular technology - working parts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by anglagard, posted 10-08-2008 1:39 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17581
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 62 of 219 (485413)
10-08-2008 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Bio-molecularTony
10-07-2008 9:03 PM


Re: Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Bio-molecularTony writes:

Percy: So, yes, the designer could "create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves". The question is, did he, and what is the evidence supporting your answer to this question?

TONY: The big mystery is just that... what things did God hand make and what other things are a result of the complex "processes" he designed and put in place.

That I am still sorting out in my own head, and so is all mankind.

Okay, I think I see what you're saying. Regarding a simple thing like a rock, God may have designed and crafted it, or it may have happened naturally, but we don't currently know how to determine which. But more importantly, there is a threshold of complexity beyond nature's power to produce without divine assistance. Do I have this right?

If so, then the question becomes, how do you measure complexity, and how do you determine the threshold of complexity above which divine assistance is required.

A last point. The Discovery Institute, which is the primary organization force behind the intelligent design movement, advises those who ask that the divine is not part of intelligent design theory, that intelligent design is science, not religion. If your goal is to displace or at least reduce the treatment of evolution in public school science classrooms, then you have to stop talking about God as the creative force and start talking about an intelligent designer.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 9:03 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-08-2008 10:29 PM Percy has responded
 Message 64 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-08-2008 10:53 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3240 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 63 of 219 (485498)
10-08-2008 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
10-08-2008 8:49 AM


Re: Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Percy: But more importantly, there is a threshold of complexity beyond nature's power to produce without divine assistance. Do I have this right?

TONY: right..

If so, then the question becomes, how do you measure complexity, and how do you determine the threshold of complexity above which divine assistance is required.

TONY: Here is another way to look at it. Artificial flowers are not real flowers - like a cheep optical illusion designed to fool the simple eye with at least the beauty that flowers have.

Life is a cleverly designed optical/intellectual illusion of what real life would look like it such a thing did really exist - though is does not - but an artificial one was designed to look as if it were that real thing - that can not really exist any way.

Rocks are not made to look real - at our level anyway. But Matter itself is yet another one of those optical illusions because it is just energy fields (Electro-magnetic) past on as physical, solid matter. It is not really what the eye thinks it is.

My point is, all illusions are cleverly contrived - intellectual thought out ideas. It is like the whole universe is like an artificial flower that is made to look as really as possible - at least to you and me on the surface. But not too deep that we can not find out what is real going on, what it is all about and how it is all made.

Rocks are natural, as this level of reality goes, but looking deeper it is not as physical and solid as our eyes would seem to think it is. Artificial flowers are plastic and rocks are nothing more then energy designed to masquerade as a reality that is solid and physical but can not really exist, so it is designed to look like the next best thing to real, which could never exist anyway.
An illusion of a physical reality - artificially made to look as real as possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 10-08-2008 8:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 10-09-2008 8:38 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded
 Message 66 by dogrelata, posted 10-09-2008 6:07 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3240 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 64 of 219 (485500)
10-08-2008 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
10-08-2008 8:49 AM


Truth may never find its way in the school..
Percy: A last point. The Discovery Institute, which is the primary organization force behind the intelligent design movement, advises those who ask that the divine is not part of intelligent design theory, that intelligent design is science, not religion. If your goal is to displace or at least reduce the treatment of evolution in public school science classrooms, then you have to stop talking about God as the creative force and start talking about an intelligent designer.

TONY: Truth will find its way, one way or another. Biotechnology is doing all the talking for us. The more they find out about life the more the answers are made simpler to understand.

Truth may never find its way in the school, just like honesty can not find its way in politics.

Many religions for thousands of years taught lies, myths, etc. Kings were all to happy to use them. Sometimes the kings added more to the stories for there own gain and control.

The same is true today; the debate is really over... I win, you lose. But will society let that be the way things are, or will they fashion the world as they please. They always fashion society in the way they please and that will never stop. So I win the battle but lose the war... I am right, but society is taught I am really wrong and uneducated, too religious pig headed, etc , etc.

This debate can not be won in an ungodly, wicked, immoral society.
God can and will speak for himself - hope you live to see it.

(I know - don't throw ROCKS in glass houses) still on topic...Hehehe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 10-08-2008 8:49 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17581
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 65 of 219 (485522)
10-09-2008 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Bio-molecularTony
10-08-2008 10:29 PM


Re: Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Thank you for that wonderful incoherency, Tony, but do you have an answer to the question: How do you measure complexity, and how do you determine the threshold of complexity above which divine assistance is required?

Concerning your next message, Message 64, if "God can and will speak for himself" then why don't you give him a chance to do that. In the meantime perhaps you could address the topic. ID claims to be science, so in this science thread you should drop the God talk, shift into science mode, and begin presenting scientific evidence for ID. The focus in this thread is how design is determined, and the specific question before you is how to measure complexity, and how to determine the threshold of complexity beyond which intelligent intervention is required.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-08-2008 10:29 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3173 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 66 of 219 (485584)
10-09-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Bio-molecularTony
10-08-2008 10:29 PM


Re: Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Tony writes:

Life is a cleverly designed optical/intellectual illusion of what real life would look like it such a thing did really exist - though is does not - but an artificial one was designed to look as if it were that real thing - that can not really exist any way.

Let’s substitute a couple of words here and see what we get…

ID is a cleverly designed optical/intellectual illusion of what a god would look like if such a thing did really exist - though it does not - but an artificial one was designed to look as if it were that real thing - that can not really exist any way.

On the other hand, a god who has to fake life because it can’t create the real thing is surely not worthy of the title of intelligent designer in the first place…


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-08-2008 10:29 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-09-2008 7:11 PM dogrelata has responded

  
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3240 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 67 of 219 (485589)
10-09-2008 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by dogrelata
10-09-2008 6:07 PM


Re: Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Funny guy.
The bible also speaks of spirit creatures as well. They do not die as we do. We are biodegradable they are not.

They may better fit the definition of true life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by dogrelata, posted 10-09-2008 6:07 PM dogrelata has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by dogrelata, posted 10-10-2008 6:34 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 3352 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 68 of 219 (485600)
10-10-2008 2:32 AM


Bio-molecularTony, please show me how techniques proposed by ID theory can be used on my rock/battery, or don't post in this thread.

Thank you.


Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-10-2008 9:07 PM BVZ has responded

    
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3173 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 69 of 219 (485613)
10-10-2008 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Bio-molecularTony
10-09-2008 7:11 PM


Re: Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Tony writes:

The bible also speaks of spirit creatures as well. They do not die as we do. We are biodegradable they are not.

…and The Lord Of The Rings and the Harry Potter series have a great deal to say about wizards and sorcery – but what has any of that got to do with science?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-09-2008 7:11 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

  
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3240 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 70 of 219 (485714)
10-10-2008 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by BVZ
10-10-2008 2:32 AM


Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3059

Over the last 25 years, scientists have discovered an exquisite world of nanotechnology within living cells. Inside these tiny labyrinthine enclosures, scientists have found functioning turbines, miniature pumps, sliding clamps, complex circuits, rotary engines, and machines for copying, reading and editing digital information-hardly the simple "globules of plasm" envisioned by Darwin's contemporaries.

Moreover, most of these circuits and machines depend on the coordinated function of many separate parts. For example, scientists have discovered that bacterial cells are propelled by miniature rotary engines called flagellar motors that rotate at speeds up to 100,000 rpm. These engines look for all-the world as if they were designed by the Mazda corporation, with many distinct mechanical parts (made of proteins) including rotors, stators, O-rings, bushings, U-joints, and drive shafts.

TONY: Rocks are missing all clues of ID. The atoms have no order or complex planned designs to speak of as are found in life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by BVZ, posted 10-10-2008 2:32 AM BVZ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by BVZ, posted 10-13-2008 1:02 AM Bio-molecularTony has responded

    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 3352 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 71 of 219 (485913)
10-13-2008 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Bio-molecularTony
10-10-2008 9:07 PM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
While that is very interesting, it does not answer my question.

Here is is again:

How can I use ID to detect design in my rock, or in my battery.

Notice how I am not asking you to use ID on anything else. For instance, I did not ask you to employ ID on anything found inside a cell. I asked you to employ ID on a rock, or on a battery. (Or both.) Please get on with it.

Please don't mention "turbines, miniature pumps, sliding clamps, complex circuits, rotary engines, and machines for copying, reading and editing digital information" or any other thing not relavent to the topic of the thread.

All I want you to do, is amploy ID on my rock, or on my battery. Can you do this or not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-10-2008 9:07 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-15-2008 9:15 PM BVZ has responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3240 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 72 of 219 (486092)
10-15-2008 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by BVZ
10-13-2008 1:02 AM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
TONY: If we were in an art class and the students were asked to create a "natural rock" as best they could. The teacher could grade the students on the quality of there work that might fool the average person.

In the other end, scientists could find synthetic rocks what were made to look real but not quiet perfect in looking natural in all ways. They could grade the intelligence or level of artistry of the person making the synthetic rocks to coming close to the real natural thing.

As I have said before, God does not make rocks so they are all naturally created. Unless man makes a synthetic rock, you won't find any.

Batteries are all made, manufactured. They all can be graded as to the skill of the maker. Whether by large manufacturing company or just a backyard garage mechanic. There are no naturally occurring batteries in nature - so all are created with different levels of skill.
What is possible and not possible is you base line - starting point and grading the skill goes up from there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by BVZ, posted 10-13-2008 1:02 AM BVZ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by BVZ, posted 10-16-2008 1:06 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded
 Message 74 by ikabod, posted 10-16-2008 3:52 AM Bio-molecularTony has responded
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2008 6:46 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 3352 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 73 of 219 (486104)
10-16-2008 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Bio-molecularTony
10-15-2008 9:15 PM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
So, according to you, the method ID employs looks something like this:

If we KNOW it is designed BEFOREHAND, then ID concludes that it is desinged, and if we KNOW that it is NOT designed, also BEFOREHAND, ID concludes that it is NOT designed.

This is not scientific, and neither is it useful.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-15-2008 9:15 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2354 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 74 of 219 (486114)
10-16-2008 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Bio-molecularTony
10-15-2008 9:15 PM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
As I have said before, God does not make rocks so they are all naturally created

so rocks are independant of god ..ok so which can first god or rocks ...
if rocks are naturally created .. is god naturally created .. if not where does he come from
why does god not make rocks .. as the rock greatly effect all forms of life .. so the per exsistance of rocks would limit god to what life forms he could make ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-15-2008 9:15 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-16-2008 6:59 AM ikabod has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 245 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 75 of 219 (486120)
10-16-2008 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Bio-molecularTony
10-15-2008 9:15 PM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
None of this really helps our ability to consistently differentiate between that which is designed and that which is not.

How can we objectively tell design from non-design? That is the question being asked here.

If complexity is the key then how do we objectively measure complexity? What units could complexity even be measured in?

Unless there is a way to objectively measure complexity any argument for design on the basis of complexity will be purely subjective.

"I think this rock is so complex as to indicate design"
"Well I think the same rock is simple enough to have arisen via natural processes"

Likewise the same conversation could be had about life. But with no objective benchmark with which to evaluate complexity how can we even possibly begin to decide the point at which an object becomes too complex to have arisen naturally? It just becomes a contest of words.

Is a man made pinhole camera really more complex than a snowflake? Subjectively I would say not.

If the argument for design rests almost entirely on the concept of complexity then thoe who advocate it would be best served by trying to determine a means of measuring physical complexity and then going onto show that a certain level of complexity is unobtainable by natural processes alone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-15-2008 9:15 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

  
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