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Author Topic:   Is my rock designed?
BVZ
Member (Idle past 1871 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 1 of 219 (481243)
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


I have found a rock. Nothing special about it. Its just a rock. As far as I know anyway, I am no geologist.

Anyway, I want to figure out if this rock was designed or not.

How can I use ID theory to figure out if my rock is designed or not?


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2008 9:30 AM BVZ has responded
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-10-2008 2:36 PM BVZ has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Larni, posted 09-11-2008 8:34 AM BVZ has responded
 Message 9 by Mr Jack, posted 09-11-2008 8:42 AM BVZ has responded
 Message 15 by ikabod, posted 09-12-2008 5:48 AM BVZ has not yet responded
 Message 23 by Syamsu, posted 09-15-2008 12:46 PM BVZ has responded
 Message 38 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 09-25-2008 6:35 AM BVZ has not yet responded
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Admin
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Message 2 of 219 (481252)
09-10-2008 7:28 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
mike the wiz
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Posts: 4349
From: u.k
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Message 3 of 219 (481273)
09-10-2008 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BVZ
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


Why is my rock here?
First point is - how has it got mass? What exactly is responsible for it being there when all the facts suggest it shouldn't be.

Secondly, why is it there? This is as releveant as the reasons for it's cause WITHOUT obstructing parsimony.

(Example; Why did Jack the Ripper rip? He didn't, his knife did, and it's infact Occam's razor - not Jack's, to suggest that Jack did it.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BVZ, posted 09-10-2008 5:55 AM BVZ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Catholic Scientist, posted 09-10-2008 12:18 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 09-10-2008 1:42 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 7 by BVZ, posted 09-11-2008 8:08 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Catholic Scientist
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Posts: 9295
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Joined: 01-27-2005
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Message 4 of 219 (481310)
09-10-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
09-10-2008 9:30 AM


Re: Why is my rock here?
So the rock was designed?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2008 9:30 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Percy
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Posts: 13050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 219 (481322)
09-10-2008 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
09-10-2008 9:30 AM


Re: Why is my rock here?
Excellent questions, Mike, but not the topic of this thread. I think you know how to propose new topics.

--Percy


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Dr Adequate
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(2)
Message 6 of 219 (481346)
09-10-2008 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by BVZ
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


We can prove that your rock was designed in a few easy stages.

(1) Do not find out anything about the geological processes that actually produce rocks. This step is crucial and cannot be omitted.

(2) Your rock either does or does not have a crystaline structure. In the first case, describe it as ordered, in the second case describe it as complex.

(3) Commit the logical fallacy known as petitio principii --- you remember how we practiced that in Sunday School? Declare loudly that whatever is ordered (or complex, depending on the properties of your rock) must proceed from an Intelligent Designer, thus assuming the thing you were required to prove.

(4) Announce that "evolutionists" claim that your rock came into being "by random chance".

(5) Call everyone who disagrees with you an atheist.

(6) Try to convince a judge that what you are doing is science. Fail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BVZ, posted 09-10-2008 5:55 AM BVZ has not yet responded

  
BVZ
Member (Idle past 1871 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 7 of 219 (481479)
09-11-2008 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
09-10-2008 9:30 AM


Re: Why is my rock here?
First point is - how has it got mass? What exactly is responsible for it being there when all the facts suggest it shouldn't be.

I dont know. Also, I don't really care. Read the OP please.


Secondly, why is it there? This is as releveant as the reasons for it's cause WITHOUT obstructing parsimony.

Off topic. Please read the OP. I want someone who understands how ID 'theory' works to show me how I can apply it on my rock.


(Example; Why did Jack the Ripper rip? He didn't, his knife did, and it's infact Occam's razor - not Jack's, to suggest that Jack did it.)

I am not looking for a reason for the existance of the rock. I am not looking for a reason for any attribute of the rock. All I want is to use ID theory to figure out if my rock was designed or not.


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 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2008 9:30 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
Larni
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Posts: 3742
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 8 of 219 (481483)
09-11-2008 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BVZ
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


The best thing that you could do would be to look for evidence of design.

If you can find evidence of design then you construct a test to accurately assess whether it was in fact designed.

Welcome to EvC, by the way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BVZ, posted 09-10-2008 5:55 AM BVZ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by BVZ, posted 09-12-2008 1:27 AM Larni has responded

    
Mr Jack
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 3475
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(2)
Message 9 of 219 (481485)
09-11-2008 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BVZ
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


Dembski writes:

Roughly speaking the filter asks three questions and in the following order: (1) Does a law explain it? (2) Does chance explain it? (3) Does design explain it?

1) Do you know of a law that explains it? Nope, you've already said you're not a geologist. So we can rule that out.1

2) Could it have formed by chance? Dunno, I haven't seen your rock, but let's say it has neat layering. Clearly it is vastly unlikely that the grains could have randomly achieved such a position.2

3) So it's designed.

That's how it worksref.

1 - so anyone with half a wit will object that you not knowing the law doesn't mean that there isn't a law (which, btw, would be better rendered as process), and they'd be right. But, here's the thing, the same applies to everything; just because no-one alive today understands the process that led to something doesn't mean there isn't a process.

2 - I say 'clearly' because I have no idea what the chance is. Neither does anyone else. In the ID slight of hand they give you examples like tossing coins and pretend you can extend this to unknown areas. You can't. You can't say anything meaningful about the probability of something until, and unless, you understand the processes around at the time of its occurance.

And there's a second problem here too. Let's suppose that we could find out the probability and it came out to 1x10-18. Gosh, we'd go, that's crazy unlikely, surely such a thing could never happen!

Is that right? Well, let's suppose your rock is 10cm x 10cm x 10 cm, that's 0.001m3. The Earth's crust is varies between 5 and 70 km thick; let's take the lower of those numbers. The Earth has a surface area of 5x108km2, so that's a volume of rock of

5x108km2x5km = 2.5x109km3 = 2.5x1018m3.

Which means there are 2.5x1021 pieces of rock of the size of your sample on earth; so if your rock formed by chance we should expect that there are 2500 pieces of rock of that configuration on earth. Not so unlikely that it exists now, is it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BVZ, posted 09-10-2008 5:55 AM BVZ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by BVZ, posted 09-12-2008 1:41 AM Mr Jack has responded
 Message 16 by Otto Tellick, posted 09-14-2008 9:34 PM Mr Jack has not yet responded

  
BVZ
Member (Idle past 1871 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 10 of 219 (481655)
09-12-2008 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Larni
09-11-2008 8:34 AM


The best thing that you could do would be to look for evidence of design.

It's just a rock. What should I be looking for?


If you can find evidence of design then you construct a test to accurately assess whether it was in fact designed.

Okay. How does ID propose I go about doing this?


Welcome to EvC, by the way

Thank you! :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Larni, posted 09-11-2008 8:34 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by bluegenes, posted 09-12-2008 1:56 AM BVZ has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Larni, posted 09-12-2008 3:49 AM BVZ has not yet responded

    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 1871 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 11 of 219 (481659)
09-12-2008 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Mr Jack
09-11-2008 8:42 AM


I haven't seen your rock, but let's say it has neat layering.

Its not an imaginary rock. It was stuck into the grooves of my shoe, and it fell out in my office.

Hold on let me check. Will the results ID theory pop out be skewed if I wash the dust off the rock?

Hold on... washing it now...

Okay. Its a black/dark brown color, with white bits in. No layers. Just bits. Does that help?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Mr Jack, posted 09-11-2008 8:42 AM Mr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Mr Jack, posted 09-12-2008 5:03 AM BVZ has responded
 Message 22 by kuresu, posted 09-15-2008 7:22 AM BVZ has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 12 of 219 (481662)
09-12-2008 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by BVZ
09-12-2008 1:27 AM


BVZ writes:

It's just a rock. What should I be looking for?

If you have taken your rock from surrounding soft earth, and the shape of the rock fits the resulting hole in the earth exactly, then I.D. theory tells you that the rock has specified complexity.

{ABE} Didn't read the post above. In which case, a perfect fit to the grooves of your shoe would indicate SC.

Edited by bluegenes, : ABE addition


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3742
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 13 of 219 (481677)
09-12-2008 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by BVZ
09-12-2008 1:27 AM


BV writes:

It's just a rock. What should I be looking for?

Sigh. Evidence of design?

BV writes:

Okay. How does ID propose I go about doing this?

Well, if it is too ordered (that is to say too much specified complexity) to have appeared by chance we must infer design. Sound logic.

Really, I don't understand the problem: I don't think any cdesign proponentist could give a more clear and less evasive answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by BVZ, posted 09-12-2008 1:27 AM BVZ has not yet responded

    
Mr Jack
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 3475
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 14 of 219 (481682)
09-12-2008 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by BVZ
09-12-2008 1:41 AM


Can you post photos?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by BVZ, posted 09-12-2008 1:41 AM BVZ has responded

Replies to this message:
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ikabod
Member (Idle past 873 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 15 of 219 (481686)
09-12-2008 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BVZ
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


your first task is to locate a copy of the offical ID theory ...this may prove hard as it seem there is in fact no theory as such ..

missing info includes

no list of starting conditions
no list of raw materials
no list of designers
no list of workers .. after all designes only draw up the plans ..
no list of the health and saftey regulations imposed on the project ..
no details of if it worked ..

If you do find a copy of the theory please share it with us ..


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