Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?

Hi, Ochaye.Feel free to start making sense anytime now.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Kbertsche. Why? The only reason you have to see this is because it disagrees with your point of view.James 2 is very clear on this matter: "faith without works is dead," and, "...faith is made complete by what [a man] does."You never answered my question: why did God give us commandments if works don't matter?----- You can't just cut out part of the Bible just because it might disagree with you! If there are 100 statements in the Bible, and only one of them says "X," then "X" is still biblical, no matter how much of the Bible says "not-X." If both "X" and "not-X" are in the Bible, then the fault is hardly the BoM's.You have to deal with James 2, damn it!Mormonism is not the only Christian sect to interpret James 2 as "pro-works," so your insistence that the "salvation-by-works" belief is non-biblical is nothing more than shear arrogance on your part.----- Here is the Mormon standard belief concerning the Bible:

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We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

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-Articles of Faith 8

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It doesn't have to be perfect to be the word of God; which is a good thing, because it always has to come through an imperfect medium (i.e. a human being) in order to get to us. So, nothing we get is perfect unless God Himself comes down and speaks it directly to us (even then, it gets tainted by our limited understanding and interpretation almost immediately).Thus, the Bible is not perfect, the Book of Mormon is not perfect, prophets are not perfect, priests of the order of Melchizedek are not perfect... and it takes a special kind of idiot to think otherwise.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

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James 2 is very clear on this matter: "faith without works is dead," and, "...faith is made complete by what [a man] does."

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This does not say that works are a means of salvation. James is consistent with works being a result of salvation.

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You never answered my question: why did God give us commandments if works don't matter

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The Bible teaches that works are not a means of salvation. But this does not mean that "works don't matter."

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You can't just cut out part of the Bible just because it might disagree with you!

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I'm not cutting anything out of the Bible. But you seem to want to ignore Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5, because they don't agree with you? Why do you avoid dealing with these passages?

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If there are 100 statements in the Bible, and only one of them says "X," then "X" is still biblical, no matter how much of the Bible says "not-X." If both "X" and "not-X" are in the Bible, then the fault is hardly the BoM's.

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But if this were the case (which I deny), then "not-X" would also be biblical. Then if either "X" or "not-X" disagreed with the Book of Mormon, we could raise it as a contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. (But of course, this would also mean that the Bible contradicts itself, which I disagree with.)

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You have to deal with James 2, damn it!

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I have dealt with it here, briefly. An in-depth discussion would pull this thread off-topic. If you want such a discussion, you should probably start a dedicated thread on it.Do you think that your interpretation of James somehow nullifies the other biblical passages that I've presented? In order to address the contradiction that I've presented you need to deal not with James, but with the passages in question, Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5.

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Mormonism is not the only Christian sect to interpret James 2 as "pro-works,"

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I agree that James is "pro-works", but it does not teach that works are a means of salvation.

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so your insistence that the "salvation-by-works" belief is non-biblical is nothing more than shear arrogance on your part.

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First, this is not quite what I've claimed in this thread (though you infer correctly that I believe it). I've simply presented a contradiction between 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32 in the Book of Mormon, and Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5 in the Bible. I believe this contradiction is fairly clear.Second, I don't see why you would label a belief as "arrogant" just because some cults and sects disagree with it. There are still some geocentrists in the world, does this make it "arrogant" to believe in heliocentrism? This doesn't follow.

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Here is the Mormon standard belief concerning the Bible:

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We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
-Articles of Faith 8

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It doesn't have to be perfect to be the word of God; which is a good thing, because it always has to come through an imperfect medium (i.e. a human being) in order to get to us. So, nothing we get is perfect unless God Himself comes down and speaks it directly to us (even then, it gets tainted by our limited understanding and interpretation almost immediately).

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Thus, the Bible is not perfect, the Book of Mormon is not perfect, prophets are not perfect, priests of the order of Melchizedek are not perfect... and it takes a special kind of idiot to think otherwise.

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Thanks for the answer and the quote.This seems to imply that any imperfections in the Bible are due only to translation, not to any deeper fundamental flaws or inconsistencies. Am I reading the statement correctly? If so, there should be no errors in the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts? And no contradictions in the Greek text of the New Testament, e.g. between the writings of Paul and of James?

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Feel free to start making sense anytime now.

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Well, it's not obvious to outsiders that Mormons are perfect, is it. You know a lot more of them than I do. I haven't read the Book of Mormon cover to cover, either, and can't say where it says that Mormons are perfect, but maybe someone will look it up and give the reference.

Hi, Kbertsche. No, it isn't: it very directly says that works make faith complete. This is an operative statement that puts the onus on works. Ergo, works is an active part, not a passive result.----- No, you can't! One can't say two opposite statements, and then claim that somebody else is contradicting them!If I am correct that the Bible contradicts itself, then the fault in this case is clearly on the Bible, not on the BoM. Therefore, you cannot use this to claim that the BoM is flawed!And, you have not dealt with James 2: you have offered an alternative interpretation which is by no means superior.----- Your belief in "salvation-by-grace-alone" is not arrogant: but, your insistence that any interpretation other than yours contradicts the Bible is arrogant.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

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works make faith complete.

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What is the purpose of faith, if works are necessary?Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

Hi, Kbertsche.Maybe it would help if I showed that James 2 doesn't stand alone:

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Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

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"...If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

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-Matthew 19:16-17

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Jesus said it Himself.-----

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Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed---not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence---continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling...

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Philippians 2:12

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That's Paul.-----

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Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him...

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Hebrews 5:8-9

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That's Paul again (maybe).-----

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And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

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-Revelation 20:12

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That's John.-----I have Jesus saying that one must keep the commandments in order to obtain eternal life.
I have Paul telling people to work out their own salvation.
I have someone else (maybe Paul) saying that Jesus gives eternal salvation to the obedient.
I have John saying people will be judged according to their own works.This is the Mormon definition of "salvation by works." It is written in the Bible. That makes it biblical.Mormons do not, however, believe that salvation is accomplished by the virtue of works alone. Christ's grace is the mechanism by which salvation is granted (that's what Ephesians 2 says), and works are insufficient. The Book of Mormon also contains this teaching:

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And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

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-Alma 22:14

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The difference is this part:

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...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

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-2 Nephi 25:23

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The interesting thing is that "all we can do" refers to another gift that God gave us, repentance:

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And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain.

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-Alma 24:11

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So, God made it possible, through the miracle of forgiveness, for us to meet His requirements through our works. So, our works are also contingent on His grace, thus, King Benjamin said:

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I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

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-Mosiah 2:21

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So, we don't earn our way to Heaven. We can't earn our way to Heaven. Our works don't get us there: God's grace gets us there. But, God asks for our works as a testament of our faith, and without faith, His grace cannot get us into Heaven.Edited by Bluejay, : A superscript in the BoM quote needed to be removed.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Ochaye. I'm not sure I understand the question. I would think the purpose of faith is the same, regardless of whether works are necessary or not.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

If one does works to be accepted by God, does one need faith at all?

Hi, Ochaye. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't remember the BoM saying that Mormons are perfect.There is this scripture:

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Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

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-3 Nephi 12:48

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Is that what you mean?If not, go here: it's a page from the Topical Guide (LDS scriptural index) containing all references in the LDS canon to the words "perfection" and "perfect": maybe you can find the scripture you're talking about there (I couldn't).

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

'I don't remember the BoM saying that Mormons are perfect.'But they need to be, if the James quote is right. To gain justification by obedience to the commandments one must never break any of them.

Hi, Ochaye. Why can't Mormons repent?

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Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

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2 Corintians 7:10

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Repentance leads to salvation, says Paul.

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The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead---whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

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-Acts 5:30-31

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Christ makes it possible to repent.The Book of Mormon specifies that it is the Atonement of Christ that makes repentance possible. (See Alma 42, too long to post here; you can read it here, verses 9 until around 25 should do it).Therefore, imperfection in obedience is surmountable by God's grace. That's what it means when the Bible says it is by God's grace that we are saved: God's grace makes it possible for us to repent when we do wrong.Edited by Bluejay, : Parenthesis

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

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Why can't Mormons repent?

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Mormons can't admit that they sin, because they must be perfect if they are to be justified, as James wrote. People either offer their own righteousness to God, or that of Christ, imputed by faith. One way is accepted, the other is fatal.It is not a question of using James to argue for justification by works, because James himself says it is fatal to try doing that. People don't read properly, or don't want to. Assuming James was not rapidly schizoid, he agreed with Paul 100%. Paul wrote to people who amply demonstrated works as proof of their faith, James wrote to people who didn't; but their theology was identical.Mormons cannot be justified, cannot be saved, because they attempt the impossible.

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If I am correct that the Bible contradicts itself, then the fault in this case is clearly on the Bible, not on the BoM. Therefore, you cannot use this to claim that the BoM is flawed!

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I don't believe that I have claimed that anything is flawed in this thread, have I? I am trying to stick to the thread title and the question in the OP, and to present some contradictions between the BoM and the Bible. I'm not trying to discuss the implications of these contradictions in this thread, but simply to discuss the contradictions themselves.