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Author | Topic: Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5268 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:He didn't have to. quote: Paul did not champion justification by works, he condemned it. He called champions of justification by works 'dogs'. Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Ochaye.
ochaye writes: He didn't have to [say anything about perfection]. But, you just told me that he did. -----
ochaye writes: Paul did not champion justification by works, he condemned it. He called champions of justification by works 'dogs'. I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you're going to talk about what Paul said, please provide the scriptural references yourself: it's really rude of you to make me look up your own arguments for you. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5268 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
Why would it be assumed that you don't know these things?
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:It says "work out," not "work for," as you seem to be reading it. They are already saved. Salvation is in them, it needs to be worked out, or put into practice. This is describing what the Bible and theologians call sanctification (though Mormons may mean something different by the term). The verse starts with "therefore;" it is a conclusion to what Paul has written earlier in the book. The verb "work out" in the Greek is a present continuous plural form, i.e. "keep working out as a group." This refers back to their interpersonal conflicts. The way they are to deal with these conflicts is by putting others first and by self-sacrifice (Phil 2:1-11). This is Paul's meaning, in context, of "work out your own salvation." Nothing in this passage teaches that works are a means of salvation. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, KBertsche.
kbertsche writes: The verse starts with "therefore;" it is a conclusion to what Paul has written earlier in the book. The verb "work out" in the Greek is a present continuous plural form, i.e. "keep working out as a group." This refers back to their interpersonal conflicts. The way they are to deal with these conflicts is by putting others first and by self-sacrifice (Phil 2:1-11). This is Paul's meaning, in context, of "work out your own salvation." I have already told you, your interpretations are off-topic in this thread. The scripture clearly says, "work out your salvation," and your view (both of them, so far) clearly contradicts this bibilical teaching. Therefore, you are being anti-biblical, and cannot be saved by God's grace. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Ochaye.
You specifically said that James said we must be perfect. He did not. You lied. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5268 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:If we choose to be justified by works, yes. Paul wrote to the same effect. As is well known, to everyone who knows much about the Bible.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Sorry; my comment was too brief and incomplete, so perhaps was misleading. Please see Message 154 for a fuller explanation of the passage.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:But he would certainly be contradicting me if he contradicted one of the two things that I said. This is obvious. quote:No, it is not. See the paragraph above. quote:Yes, I noticed. I assume this is because you agree that this is a true contradiction, as you've implied with your claim that the Bible is self-contradictory. How about we get back to discussing the proposed contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, instead of all these peripheral issues? How about you actually address the two passages above?
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Guys.
I need to let y'all know what's going on. Life is getting really busy right now, and I've been stressed out. Rereading my recent posts on this thread, I can see that it's spilling over into this, and I've been getting more and more out of control. I'm getting to obsessed with this topic, and it's affecting my research and my class work. I'll try to post a brief summation message in the next couple of days, after which I'll have to take a break from this website for at least a couple of weeks in order to get my work and personal life back on track. Before I go, I want to apologize to you two for venting my personal-life frustrations in this thread. I can see that I'm not capable of handling intense debates right now. Thanks, guys. Edited by Bluejay, : A few alterations. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Sorry; I missed this one:
quote:So are you suggesting that perhaps Samuel prophesied correctly but that it was recorded erroneously in the Book of Mormon? If so, what objective evidence to you (or other Mormons) have for determining which things in the BoM are accurate, and which are errors?
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I was simply answering your question. But I agree with you; both your and my interpretations of such peripheral passages are off-topic in this thread. Let's get back to the passages that seem to contradict, shall we?
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Apology accepted.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5268 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:No bother.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5268 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:They are already justified. So merely to cite this verse in the context of justification is unjustified. quote:Salvation is in no-one. Salvation is for those who are justified by faith at the time that they die, or when Jesus returns. To remain justified by faith entails the continued obedience implied by faith. If one does not experience fear and trembling in learning obedience, one is no Christian. quote:That is incorrect and improper use of English. quote:Demonstration of works is not sanctification. quote:It's the conclusion to what he has just written about, the humble example of Jesus, who had to learn humility. If Jesus was humble, then so should be the saints- all of them, not just Philippians. And that means experiencing the fear and trembling that many will not face. quote:The addition 'as a group' is unjustified, because the singular would be absurd. The word means simply 'work out', i.e. 'complete', as already explained as being hermeneutic- and ignored. So the justified who are saved, all of them, complete their salvation in fear and trembling, at least some of the time. There is no getting around that. So Christianity is not for any who find fear and trembling too much- and many millions do.
quote:There are no such conflicts mentioned. On the contrary, the Philippians are indirectly commended: 'I give thanks to my God for every remembrance of you.' Phil 1:3 (HCSB) This is not a special situation, as with the Corinthian church. It is applicable to all, at any time. The above is the most dreadful eisegesis, both technically and in its effect. In rejecting the obvious fallacies of Mormonism, one should not fall for less obvious ones. The infantile 'word-search theology' of Catholics and Mormons etc., who see the translated word 'work' and gleefully seize on a wrong conclusion, is not the only trap for the unwary.
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