Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?

quote:

---

He didn't say anything about perfection.

---

He didn't have to.

quote:

---

Second of all, is this a tacit agreement with me that Paul champions salvation by works?

---

Paul did not champion justification by works, he condemned it. He called champions of justification by works 'dogs'.Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

Hi, Ochaye. But, you just told me that he did.----- I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you're going to talk about what Paul said, please provide the scriptural references yourself: it's really rude of you to make me look up your own arguments for you.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Why would it be assumed that you don't know these things?

quote:

---

In what world does "work out" mean "make obvious"?

---

It says "work out," not "work for," as you seem to be reading it. They are already saved. Salvation is in them, it needs to be worked out, or put into practice. This is describing what the Bible and theologians call sanctification (though Mormons may mean something different by the term).The verse starts with "therefore;" it is a conclusion to what Paul has written earlier in the book. The verb "work out" in the Greek is a present continuous plural form, i.e. "keep working out as a group." This refers back to their interpersonal conflicts. The way they are to deal with these conflicts is by putting others first and by self-sacrifice (Phil 2:1-11). This is Paul's meaning, in context, of "work out your own salvation."Nothing in this passage teaches that works are a means of salvation.Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

Hi, KBertsche. I have already told you, your interpretations are off-topic in this thread. The scripture clearly says, "work out your salvation," and your view (both of them, so far) clearly contradicts this bibilical teaching.Therefore, you are being anti-biblical, and cannot be saved by God's grace.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Ochaye.You specifically said that James said we must be perfect.He did not.You lied.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

quote:

---

James said we must be perfect.

---

If we choose to be justified by works, yes. Paul wrote to the same effect.As is well known, to everyone who knows much about the Bible.

quote:

---

That isn't Paul's meaning.

---

Sorry; my comment was too brief and incomplete, so perhaps was misleading. Please see Message 154 for a fuller explanation of the passage.

quote:

---

If you say two mutually contradictory things, you cannot claim that somebody else is contradicting you when he chooses to uphold one of the two things you are saying.

---

But he would certainly be contradicting me if he contradicted one of the two things that I said. This is obvious.

quote:

---

This is the argument that you are making,

---

No, it is not. See the paragraph above.

quote:

---

I haven't even addressed them [Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5] yet.

---

Yes, I noticed. I assume this is because you agree that this is a true contradiction, as you've implied with your claim that the Bible is self-contradictory.How about we get back to discussing the proposed contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, instead of all these peripheral issues? How about you actually address the two passages above?

Hi, Guys.I need to let y'all know what's going on.Life is getting really busy right now, and I've been stressed out. Rereading my recent posts on this thread, I can see that it's spilling over into this, and I've been getting more and more out of control.I'm getting to obsessed with this topic, and it's affecting my research and my class work. I'll try to post a brief summation message in the next couple of days, after which I'll have to take a break from this website for at least a couple of weeks in order to get my work and personal life back on track.Before I go, I want to apologize to you two for venting my personal-life frustrations in this thread. I can see that I'm not capable of handling intense debates right now.Thanks, guys.Edited by Bluejay, : A few alterations.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Sorry; I missed this one:

quote:

---

The Book of Mormon was an abridged compilation of many hundreds and hundreds of records that the Nephites had written. It's entirely possible that it wasn't Samuel's mistake, but the mistake of one of the abridgers, Mormon or Moroni.

---

So are you suggesting that perhaps Samuel prophesied correctly but that it was recorded erroneously in the Book of Mormon? If so, what objective evidence to you (or other Mormons) have for determining which things in the BoM are accurate, and which are errors?

quote:

---

I have already told you, your interpretations are off-topic in this thread.

---

I was simply answering your question. But I agree with you; both your and my interpretations of such peripheral passages are off-topic in this thread. Let's get back to the passages that seem to contradict, shall we?

quote:

---

Before I go, I want to apologize to you two for venting my personal-life frustrations in this thread. I can see that I'm not capable of handling intense debates right now.

---

Apology accepted.

quote:

---

Before I go, I want to apologize to you two for venting my personal-life frustrations in this thread. I can see that I'm not capable of handling intense debates right now.

---

No bother.

quote:

---

It says "work out," not "work for," as you seem to be reading it. They are already saved.

---

They are already justified. So merely to cite this verse in the context of justification is unjustified.

quote:

---

Salvation is in them

---

Salvation is in no-one. Salvation is for those who are justified by faith at the time that they die, or when Jesus returns. To remain justified by faith entails the continued obedience implied by faith. If one does not experience fear and trembling in learning obedience, one is no Christian.

quote:

---

it needs to be worked out, or put into practice.

---

That is incorrect and improper use of English.

quote:

---

This is describing what the Bible and theologians call sanctification (though Mormons may mean something different by the term).

---

Demonstration of works is not sanctification.

quote:

---

The verse starts with "therefore;" it is a conclusion to what Paul has written earlier in the book.

---

It's the conclusion to what he has just written about, the humble example of Jesus, who had to learn humility. If Jesus was humble, then so should be the saints- all of them, not just Philippians. And that means experiencing the fear and trembling that many will not face.

quote:

---

The verb "work out" in the Greek is a present continuous plural form, i.e. "keep working out as a group."

---

The addition 'as a group' is unjustified, because the singular would be absurd. The word means simply 'work out', i.e. 'complete', as already explained as being hermeneutic- and ignored.So the justified who are saved, all of them, complete their salvation in fear and trembling, at least some of the time. There is no getting around that. So Christianity is not for any who find fear and trembling too much- and many millions do.

quote:

---

This refers back to their interpersonal conflicts.

---

There are no such conflicts mentioned. On the contrary, the Philippians are indirectly commended: 'I give thanks to my God for every remembrance of you.' Phil 1:3 (HCSB) This is not a special situation, as with the Corinthian church. It is applicable to all, at any time. The above is the most dreadful eisegesis, both technically and in its effect.In rejecting the obvious fallacies of Mormonism, one should not fall for less obvious ones. The infantile 'word-search theology' of Catholics and Mormons etc., who see the translated word 'work' and gleefully seize on a wrong conclusion, is not the only trap for the unwary.