Hi, KBertsche.
I changed my mind: I'm back in.
kbertsche writes:
Bluejay writes:
The simple fact is that, despite the incessant hounding of born-again Christians, no Christian on the planet believes in salvation by grace alone. Not one. Every single one of us believes that salvation is, at least in part, contingent on man.
Sorry, but what you say is clearly false.
So, then, it's your position that every person in the world is saved? If not, what is it that separates the "saved" from the "not saved"?
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KBertsche writes:
I stand by my statement that good works are absolutely not a means of salvation...
Then I refer you to the previous message from Ochaye (524230):
ochaye writes:
There is no argument that works are not necessary for salvation.
As long as these two mutually contradictory positions are held by two non-Mormons on this thread, your argument that my position on the issue is non-biblical has no credibility.
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kbertsche writes:
Bluejay writes:
Matthew 14:12
This reference seems to be a typo?
Yep, it sure is. But, I can't remember now what reference I originally wanted. Guess I've only got three instead.
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kbertsche writes:
Bluejay writes:
Matthew 19:17
Read the rest of the story!
Earlier on this thread, you were arguing that it didn't matter what the rest of the New Testament said, as long as the BoM said the opposite of what one scripture said.
Now, you're complaining about me taking things out of context.
Normal humans would be experiencing a phenomenon called "cognitive dissonance" at this point.
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kbertsche writes:
The point is that it is impossible to gain salvation by doing good deeds--one can never do enough good to ensure salvation.
No, it isn't. It goes like this:
Man: "I did X: what else do I have to do to get into heaven?"
Jesus: "Do Y. And Z. Then, you'll get into heaven."
Note that Jesus didn't answer, "Nothing: nothing you do will ever get you into heaven." That's what He would have to have said in order for the story to mean what you interpret it to mean. Instead, He told the man that doing Y and Z would get him into heaven.
And, verse 29 (NIV) says:
quote:
Everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Jesus says, "If you do X, you get eternal life, where X = leave family or belongings for me." Since "leaving family or belongings" is something a person does, and "something a person does" is the operational definition of "works," Jesus just said that works get people into eternal life.
And, in order to avoid any potential further confusion, "eternal life" is generally what Mormons mean when we say, "salvation."
It seems pretty clear to me.
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kbertsche writes:
Bluejay writes:
1 Cor. 3:13-15
This directly argues against your claim! Verse 15 says that some will be saved even though their works are burned up.
Here's the scripture (NIV) with surrouding verses for context:
quote:
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
What reward is received by the man whose work survives the fire, and lost by the man whose work does not survive the fire?
In Mormonism (and in some other sects, I understand), we define two types of "salvation": salvation from physical death (resurrection), and salvation from spiritual death. Salvation from physical death is free for all men (i.e. all men go to "heaven"); but, salvation from spiritual death requires works (i.e. only those who fulfill the works requirement go to the "best heaven," where God is).
To me, that's the "reward" 1 Corinthians 3 mentions. What is your opinion as to what the "reward" is?
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kbertsche writes:
Sorry, but what you say is false. What we have been explaining is the historic Christian faith.
Paul taught in the first century that salvation was not on the basis of good works.
And, before Paul taught that (granting, for the sake of argument, that you are right about this), Jesus taught that doing X will get people into eternal life, where X = a type of work.
So, I'm sorry, but what you say is false: the historic Christian faith was a faith of salvation by works.
-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
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