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Author | Topic: Where did the matter and energy come from? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
In John Gribbin’s review of Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality" in the WSJ, the review states there are two possibilities for why we live in a "just right" universe with a "just right" gravity. Using suits as an analogy, "either the suit has been specifically tailored for the client — made to measure — or he has visited a large store with an array of suits in all possible sizes, choosing the one right for him off the peg."
The review goes on to say, "the best interpretation of the laws of physics as we understand them is that we live in an off-the-peg universe," yet gives no rational reasons why this is the best interpretation of the laws of physics! I find this statement astounding and without scientific merit. Would the laws of physics somehow work differently in a "tailor-made universe" than they would in an similar "off-the-peg universe?" The only universe that we can truly come to know and understand with some scientific certainty is the one we live in which has many other scientific constants that seem to be tailor-made just for man's existence. To favor a belief in a vast array of universes in order to come up with a tailor-made universe ignores the obvious better interpretation that only a divine Tailor could make such a tailor-made universe as we live in. But as you said, science rejects this conclusion, as do most at this forum. Blessings to those who know our Divine Tailor and to those who do not.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
My reply was to a Believer in our Divine Tailor.
To those who choose not to believe, Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Book Review: The Hidden Reality - WSJ
As explained in "The Hidden Reality" review by John Gribbin,
quote: Why not read the book for yourself and find out about all the other "just right" properties that this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist? Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given. Edited by John 10:10, : added above quote reference Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given. Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
The quote was from John Gribbin's review of physicist Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality," not my quote.
If you have a problem with his explanation of the "just right" properties this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist, you could look at this list of constants: Constants of Physics and Mathematics Either way you want to roll the dice, our Tailor-made universe/galaxy/solar system is unique with "just right" constants necessary for there to be life on earth as we know it. If you want to believe in "other life" out there somewhere that is somehow the same as ours, show us the science that proves with reasonable accuracy that life exists anywhere else in our universe? PS - Please don't show us the recent studies that are finding potential alien planets that are orbiting stars. Finding potential alien planets and actually showing life exists on these planets are two different things.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
jar writes: We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us. And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ? Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Coyote writes: Please don't show us the recent studies that are finding potential alien planets that are orbiting stars. Finding potential alien planets and actually showing life exists on these planets are two different things.
So your religion tells you that there is no life elsewhere? I'd be cautious, as the history of religious pronouncements shown to be incorrect by advances in science is not a one on which to bet the rent money. So you deduce from my statement that I believe there's no life elsewhere? All I said was finding alien planets and showing aliens actually live there are two different things. Our government is spending millions/billions searching the heavens to just find these planets that may be orbiting right size stars at the right distance, but then explain that much much more sophisticated instruments are needed to actually determine if there may be a sufficient environment there for potential life on board. And for what purpose? To desperately convince more and more unbelievers, as if you needed more convincing, that we are possibly not unique in a Tailor-made universe.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
NoNukes writes: John 10:10 writes: The quote was from John Gribbin's review ofIf you have a problem with his explanation of the "just right" properties this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist, you could look at this list of constants: Constants of Physics and Mathematics Okay, I looked. But I didn't see any support for the constants being "just right". I just saw a list of constants with an indication of the accuracy to which they had been measured.
quote:You would say that no matter what the value of constants happened to be, if you existed. Scientists/physicists have looked at a number of these constants, and have determined that if they were different by just very small amounts, life as we know it on earth would not exist. Your answer would say if the constants were different, then maybe life would be different. So what? This is a cop out! All it does is ignore the fact that we do live in a wonderfully designed universe with wonderfully designed constants that allows life as we know it to exist. A seeker of truth would search for the why rather than always asking for the how. If you want to live in your chance/what if world, be my guest.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
jar writes: John 10:10 writes: jar writes: We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us. And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ? Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe. Well, look around. Almost all of the universe is unfit for human habitation. Your Divine Tailor created a suit that simply doesn't fit the client. The REAL Divine would have done better. Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better! There are two truths that I know: There is a Tailor God, and I am not. Since you could have done better, let's see what you can do, not just opine.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Coyote writes: Our government is spending millions/billions searching the heavens to just find these planets that may be orbiting right size stars at the right distance, but then explain that much much more sophisticated instruments are needed to actually determine if there may be a sufficient environment there for potential life on board. And for what purpose? To desperately convince more and more unbelievers, as if you needed more convincing, that we are possibly not unique in a Tailor-made universe. So you think the space exploration efforts are being done to thwart your religious beliefs? You can't think of any other reasons to explore space? What a joke! You need to get out more. The technology we developed to get to the moon and back has been used to enhance life here on earth. Some of the technology we developed exploring other planets in our solar system has also enhanced life here on earth. But I think this paticular space exploration looking for alien planets out there somewhere that we can never reach/visit is a great waste of time and money. That's the sad joke!
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Straggler writes: The vastness of the universe is largely pointless if it is designed for us alone. Or even us a other tiny pockets of life elsewhere. As Richard Feynman put it:
"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama." Your universe designer continues to fail to meet the grade. Inefficiency and profligacy demand a D- at best. As always you fail to understand not only the stage God created, but why He created it. But that's another topic that's above your pay grade.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Straggler writes: J10 writes: If you want to live in your chance/what if world, be my guest. Has it ever occurred to you that the universe is not fine tuned for us but that we are fine tuned to fit the universe (or at least the tiny tiny part of it we find ourselves in)? It's not an either/or, it's BOTH! Blessings
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
You are the one who said:
quote: How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better? The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Straggler writes: J10 writes: Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better! From the science writer, and Pulitzer Prize winner, John McPhee.
"Spread out your arms to represent the 4.6 billion years the Earth has existed. Run your eye all along one arm and to the wrist at the end of the other to get to the start of the Cambrian period, 544 million years ago. The greater Permian extinction of 250 million years ago — when 96 per cent of marine species and three quarters of terrestrial ones died out — is about where the fingers begin. The whole of the Cenozoic era — the last 65 million years is in the fingerprint and with a single stroke with a medium-grained nailfile you could eradicate human history Let's hope that there is no catastrophic equivalent of that single stroke with a nailfile in this supposedly perfectly designed universe. Ignore the truth of the REAL Divine Tailor who says He will create a new heaven and a new earth to your own destruction (Rev 20:15 - 21:1). But I'm sure John the Apostle never won any Pulitzer prizes for his scientific endeavors.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
jar writes: John 10:10 writes: You are the one who said:
quote: How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better? The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist. I never claimed I could do better. Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals. So what would you have done better that this REAL Divine Tailor you don't believe in?
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Straggler writes: J10 writes: As always you fail to understand not only the stage God created, but why He created it. But that's another topic that's above your pay grade. Well putting aside the why that is apparently above my pay grade (how much is God paying you - I need to speak to my agent) can you explain the seeming extreme wastefulness of such a vast and overwhelmingly inhospitable universe? Why soooooooooooo big when we soooooooooo small? Again you are deciding that God was wasteful in designing such a vast and seemingly inhospitable universe wherein He created matter and energy that holds it all together. Are you not now playing God? Nice dodge, putting aside the why! If you really wany to know what God is paying me, let's go to another forum section and discuss.
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