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Author | Topic: War and Morality. Al Qaeda v USA | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I was all set to refute you, having earlier read that the Al-Qaeda organization was made up of young educated professionals. Surely they could not be so gullible! Then I read more from Marc Sageman, the so called expert. Understanding Terror Networks
It is religion! (Also due to loneliness...they attend the meanings as a social outlet, initially) Un-frickin-believable! Surely our own domestic example is organized Christianity...but beyond protesting an abortion clinic or some anti gay crap, it never seems as if many American Christian fundamentalists would ever dare kill themselves over a cause! (I was one and am a coward!) But I read further....
So what’s in common? There’s really no profile, just similar trajectories to joining the jihad and that most of these men were upwardly and geographically mobile. Because they were the best and brightest, they were sent abroad to study. They came from moderately religious, caring, middle-class families. They’re skilled in computer technology. They spoke three, four, five, six languages. Most Americans don’t know Arabic; these men know two or three Western languages: German, French, English. When they became homesick, they did what anyone would and tried to congregate with people like themselves, whom they would find at mosques. So they drifted towards the mosque, not because they were religious, but because they were seeking friends. They moved in together in apartments, in order to share the rent and also to eat together - they were mostly halal, those who observed the Muslim dietary laws, similar in some respects to the kosher laws of Judaism. Some argue that such laws help to bind a group together since observing them is something very difficult and more easily done in a group. A micro-culture develops that strengthens and absorbs the participants as a unit. This is a halal theory of terrorism, if you like. These cliques, often in the vicinity of mosques that had a militant script advocating violence to overthrow the corrupt regimes, transformed alienated young Muslims into terrorists. It’s all really group dynamics. You cannot understand the 9/11 type of terrorism from individual characteristics. The suicide bombers in Spain are another perfect example. Seven terrorists sharing an apartment and one saying Tonight we’re all going to go, guys. You can’t betray your friends, and so you go along. Individually, they probably would not have done it. Group dynamics!!! That I could understand! When I was a charismaniac Christian, I felt accepted and part of a group. Had the Pastor told us that the government was of the antichrist, and provided circumstantial evidence, as a group who knows what we would have done??? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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Group dynamics!!! That I could understand! When I was a charismaniac Christian, I felt accepted and part of a group. Had the Pastor told us that the government was of the antichrist, and provided circumstantial evidence, as a group who knows what we would have done??? You might want to read WE FEW, WE HAPPY FEW, WE BAND OF BROTHERS, by J. Anderson Thomson, Jr for an interesting account of male coalitionary violence. A little more is needed than just religion, but religion does 'hijack' certain evolved traits that can lead to bad things.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
but beyond protesting an abortion clinic or some anti gay crap, it never seems as if many American Christian fundamentalists would ever dare kill themselves over a cause! (I was one and am a coward!) I grant you, it's deeply unnatural to most people to kill and die in service of a cause. I think that's probably a good thing. But, consider this. If someone, or something, could convince you to fight for a cause, wouldn't it be most likely something originating from your religious community? Aren't those the voices you take most seriously on moral matters? If your pastor introduced a speaker one Sunday morning in church and told you this was somebody whose counsel and beliefs your pastor had enormous respect and admiration for, wouldn't you pay particularly close attention? Wouldn't you weigh those words particularly heavily? I was a fundamentalist once, too. So I remember how it is you get there - how you start with a faith that you basically inherited, never really gave much thought to. You had a notion, however, that your faith was morally correct and that you were supposed to follow its tenets. And then one day, somebody shows up and tells you it's not good enough. It's not enough to just be a good person - there's a spiritual war on, you're not just a regular joe, you're a soldier in a holy army. He's got the passages in the Bible to prove it. He's got the testimony of a few recent converts and they're just on fire. It's amazing! It's like they light up from the inside. You've never seen anything like it in your church, if you even ever went (which you don't, and feel guilty about), and you want more than anything in the world to feel that kind of certainty, that kind of faith, that kind of devotion. That kind of importance. Everything in your life seems unsure and maybe just a little insignificant. But here's your chance to be involved in the most important thing of all time and you won't be in it alone. It doesn't matter what religion you are; you're already primed for this. You fell for fundamentalism just as soon as you decided that interpreting words in a book was congruent with making moral decisions, that there was a way to skip over uncomfortable moral deliberations and just look up the answers in some kind of "life's instruction manual."
Had the Pastor told us that the government was of the antichrist, and provided circumstantial evidence, as a group who knows what we would have done??? Yeah, exactly, Phat. You know exactly how it is. We should thank our lucky stars that, generally, the agenda of the average American religious leader is to get his church attendees to leave Chick tracts instead of tips when they go out for after-church brunch.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Now, there's what's supposed to happen and what actually happens. I'm not really talking about fog of war or bad intel or mistakes or even a psycho in uniform. I guess you don't hear about the drones killing civilians, eh? There is at least a 10-1 civilian/"terrorist" kill ratio for every drone attack.
quote:Source Have they stopped the drone attacks? How about Guantanamo? Waterboarding? Good ole America isn't always the good guy the patriots paint it to be..... "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2523 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
I guess you don't hear about the drones killing civilians, eh? There is at least a 10-1 civilian/"terrorist" kill ratio for every drone attack. Sourcing on civilian deaths is weak and the numbers are often exaggerated When YOUR source says that your sourcing is weak and exaggerated, it's time to stop using that source. The fact that we try to target specific groups or places AT ALL is a HUGE advancement in warfare. The fact that we have rules of engagement that tell our troops not to fire unless fired upon is a HUGE change. In WWII, we'd carpet bomb a city to try and destroy a factory. Or nuke a whole city to send a message. Now we spend billions developing bombs specifically so that we don't have to carpet bomb and people still bitch. Fuck it. If people are going to complain either way, I say go back to the old way. Pave Afghanistan and move in some Indians and Chinese. They need the space.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
When YOUR source says that your sourcing is weak and exaggerated, it's time to stop using that source. You're right. Coming by numbers of actual civilian deaths is tough, since the only intel we (the public) get is second hand. That's not to say it is justifiable the way the drones are being used. A LOT of civilians are dying due to them.
Now we spend billions developing bombs specifically so that we don't have to carpet bomb and people still bitch. I'm "bitching" that we are there at all. I'm just saying that we aren't exactly the heroes people want to paint us as. It's not really "America, fuck yea!". That was a movie..... "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2523 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
A LOT of civilians are dying due to (drone attacks). Qualify that. As compared to what? On per armament or per engagement basis, how do drones rank up against bombers or artillery or foot soldiers? If drones are twice as likely to kill civilians as a foot soldier, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with it if they are 10x more likely. That's because they are 100% less likely to result in the death of a US soldier. I don't think we should be there at all. I don't think we should have gone in. I don't think we should stay. I don't care if the country dissolves after we leave. If people can't rule themselves, that's their problem. But, if we're going to be stuck there, I want one thing - Less dead troops. Period. I honestly don't care if that puts thousands of "innocents" in danger. At this point, the people of Iraq and Afghanistan have had 10 years to get their shit together. France didn't set up shop here for a decade while we got our shit together. If the people in these countries want to ethnic cleanse each other over some bullshit disagreement about the religion they are all sharing, then let them. These are countries only because EXTERNAL forces declared them countries. Before that they were tribes with no higher aspiration than killing the tribe on the next hill over. The Kurds don't want to be Iraqi. The middle Iraqis don't want to be in the same country as the southern Iraqis. Why should we force them. Indiana Jones once said "These Arabs don't mind if we kill each other, they aren't going to interfere in our business." I say we flip the script and get the F out.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Have they stopped the drone attacks? How about Guantanamo? Waterboarding? Good ole America isn't always the good guy the patriots paint it to be..... No, they sure aren’t. Fortunately, we can say so without too many repercussions. Have a look at the paragraphs surrounding your quote.
quote: I agree that the drone program is wrong in alot of ways. Somehow cowardly. I also think that there is something wrong with people who would hide behind their children knowing full well that they are putting them in harms way. But hey, minor details right. Like disparaging the policy of waterboarding people who would cut your fucking head off if the positions were reversed. Like crying foul when your country unintentionally kills civilians but ignoring the fact that your enemies deliberately target schools (the ones with no girls in them) and hospitals. Having pointed these things out, I also want to say that we should and we do hold ourselves to a higher standard. In fact, can you point to any that are higher?
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Qualify that. More civilians die as a result of the drone attacks than do militants.
On per armament or per engagement basis, how do drones rank up against bombers or artillery or foot soldiers? I've no idea. I agree with everything else in your post. "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Having pointed these things out, I also want to say that we should and we do hold ourselves to a higher standard. In fact, can you point to any that are higher? Yea, how about NOT torturing and NOT indefinitely holding individuals who have been accused of NO crime and are not POW's or war criminals. Just because what the other guy would do is worse doesn't somehow make it OK for us to torture people.
but ignoring the fact that your enemies deliberately target schools (the ones with no girls in them) and hospitals. Who's ignoring that? I sure as shit am not. It's just not what is being discussed. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Just because what the other guy would do is worse doesn't somehow make it OK for us to torture people. I agree and that is why I made the higher standard comment. In the real world, who conducts their wars with a higher regard for human rights and civilian casualties? Yes we can and should do better. Just because we are not perfect doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that the enemy is worse by magnitudes.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2523 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
More civilians die as a result of the drone attacks than do militants. But that statement is worthless. I'm making up these numbers to demonstrate: Let's say that the kill ratio of drones is 10:1 innocents/militants. That sounds bad. But if the kill ratio of bombers is 25:1And soldiers is 15:1 And artillery is 30:1 Then the drones are the only moral choice. Simply saying "they kill innocents" is insufficient to judge them unless you put it in the context of the methods it's replacing
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
In the real world, who conducts their wars with a higher regard for human rights and civilian casualties? Comparatively speaking, you are correct: we do.
Just because we are not perfect doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that the enemy is worse by magnitudes. I never ignored this fact. All I was saying was that it it shouldn't matter what tactics the enemy uses. We ought to be the "bigger man" so to speak. If we are going to police the world and attempt to lead by example, we need to be an example worth following. "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Here is a link to a pertinent Wiki article. I don't have time to analyze it (at work right now). I will check it out when I get some down time, so don't think I'm saying "here, you do the research".
Civilian casualties caused by ISAF and US Forces in the War in Afghanistan (2001—present) Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Civilian casualties caused by ISAF and US Forces in the War in Afghanistan (2001—present) Remember this one? (It was in all the papers.)
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