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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 144 of 303 (638289)
10-21-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by zi ko
10-21-2011 10:01 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
zi ko writes:
It seems to me rather obviously that anything comes (emerges?) from somethin else is at least about similar or relative to its predecessor.
This is simply incorrect. I may be relative to it's predecessor yes because that is what the term relative means.
But can you tell me what is similar between a acorn and a oak tree?
Can you tell me what is similar between mushroom and yeast?
zi ko writes:
So intelligence coming from matter and universal laws, should somehow show some characteristics of matter and laws.
What characteristics does intelligence share with matter and the laws of physics?
zi ko writes:
These thoughts are surely not in line with regularly defined intelligence.
Thoughts that changing the definition of a word to suit ones particular point is no different than me saying: " Today I define black to mean blue." Words have meaning because of consensus.
zi ko writes:
I think the main desagreement lstems from the fear of current evolutionsts
to accept other definition about intelligence could shutter the basis of their favorit evolution theory.
No the main disagreement stems from changing the definition of intelligence to include everything and anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by zi ko, posted 10-21-2011 10:01 AM zi ko has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 147 of 303 (638292)
10-21-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by zi ko
10-21-2011 10:32 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
zi ko writes:
This ithink could not change my proposition that there is innate intelligence in nature.
If you believe that, then fine. But if you wish to show this is true you must present more convincing evidence than just saying it.
Insane asylums are full of people who believe almost anything.
If you said: The laws of nature and the way matter and energy manifest our universe is like it was behaving in a intelligent way.
You would get no argument. Because you would be simply stating a opinion describing the laws of nature as intelligent. But No you are literally stating the laws of nature have innate intelligence.
I have yet to see any evidence from you to support this claim. In fact your OP condenses to nothing more than saying everything has intelligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by zi ko, posted 10-21-2011 10:32 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by zi ko, posted 10-21-2011 11:58 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 165 by zi ko, posted 10-22-2011 10:35 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 149 of 303 (638294)
10-21-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by GDR
10-21-2011 10:53 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
Maybe someone who knows more about QM than we do could comment but I also want to repeat the point that determinism makes intelligence unnecessary and thus there would be no reason for it to evolve.
Determinism is how our universe operates. The wave function propagates in a determistic fashion. Randomness and stoichastic behaviors of matter still operate in accordance to deterministic confines. Its just the way it all comes together depends on initial conditions which on a Quantum level are never the same.
In regards to free will and choices and such it seems we have the ability to choose, but can not change the initial conditions of what has come before. Information in the universe can not be lost. Every atom and subatomic particle if given enough time will manifest our universe. And so it has, our universe is here and matter and energy has become senitient through the evolution of the human mind. Saying intelligence is unnecessary and thus has not reason to evolve is like saying the universe is unnecessary and has no reason to evolve either.
The old Catholic Doctor Saint Thomas Aquinas had much to say about this" argument from necessity"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 10-21-2011 10:53 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by GDR, posted 10-21-2011 1:47 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 151 of 303 (638302)
10-21-2011 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by zi ko
10-21-2011 11:58 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by zi ko, posted 10-21-2011 11:58 AM zi ko has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 299 of 303 (640417)
11-09-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by zi ko
11-09-2011 10:06 AM


Re: innate intelligence
To be intellectually brave means one must accept the fact that sometimes our questions lead to unsavory answers. To dismiss previous study based on good science and replace it with contradicting, unfounded speculation to prop up some anthropomorphic ideas on innate intelligence is nonsensical at the least.
Science does not fear the truth, but rather seeks it out. imo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by zi ko, posted 11-09-2011 10:06 AM zi ko has not replied

  
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