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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 13 of 303 (637631)
10-17-2011 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by zi ko
10-17-2011 8:59 AM


zi ko writes:
it would be fair to use exaples of the type: If an animal can see, feel hot , danger ect, why not a cell
So...
If an animal can think: why can't cells think?
If an animal can make noises: why can't cells make noises?
If an animal can hear: why can't cells hear?
If an animal can taste: why can't cells taste?
If an animal can lay eggs: why can't cells lay eggs?
If an animal can weave baskets: why can't cells weave baskets?
If an animal can build a rocket to the moon: why can't cells build a rocket to the moon!
Wow: cells can do almost anything! /sarcasm off
If an animal can run at 30mph: why can't you?

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 8:59 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 9:45 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 20 of 303 (637646)
10-17-2011 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by zi ko
10-17-2011 9:45 AM


zi ko writes:
I advise you to read my O.P. You will see there that cells can "see" "measure" ect
But cells can also "hear", "weave", "think", etc.
So, one question at a time then:
Hearing: I don’t give it the original meaning of the word (namely, to the ability to perceive sound by detecting vibrations through an organ such as the ear. What I really mean is: in response to auditory factors, a naturally inside organism pre-existing mechanism, and by force of chemistry and physics, causes changes in the genome. So I think of it as a mechanism, but not hearing in any traditional sense.
If an animal can hear: why can't cells hear?

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 9:45 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 12:17 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 31 of 303 (637682)
10-17-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by zi ko
10-17-2011 12:17 PM


Re: innate intelligence
zi ko writes:
I put it in the order the eminent scientist have written it. Don't change please what i have said.
I was not quoting you.
Here it is again:
Hearing: I don’t give it the original meaning of the word (namely, the ability to perceive sound by detecting vibrations through an organ such as the ear. What I really mean is: in response to auditory factors, a naturally inside organism pre-existing mechanism, and by force of chemistry and physics, causes changes in the genome. So I think of it as a mechanism, but not hearing in any traditional sense.
If an animal can hear: why can't cells hear?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 12:17 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 41 of 303 (637764)
10-17-2011 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by GDR
10-17-2011 8:04 PM


GDR writes:
Here is a site that talks about it but I suppose it isn't conclusive.
The only place that cellular intelligence is mentioned is in the title/heading.
He actually seems to be writing about cellular memory (which I saw best described as "It has not been easy to find any article that either does not condemn the idea as total mumbo jumbo, or, while supporting the ideas, still makes it sound like it is mumbo jumbo.").
But memory is not intelligence - my PC has memory.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 8:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 8:50 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 43 of 303 (637768)
10-17-2011 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by GDR
10-17-2011 8:50 PM


GDR writes:
I'm not trying to be clever here, but isn't memory stored intelligence?
As in 'military intelligence'?
Then yes, memory could be considered to be stored intelligence.
But the document you linked refers to DNA from one human affecting the preferences of another human. (His use of the word 'memory' is kind of metaphorical.)
And the intelligence that Jar was asking about was not (if I understood correctly) intelligence as in news/information.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 8:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 9:31 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 46 of 303 (637775)
10-17-2011 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by GDR
10-17-2011 9:31 PM


GDR writes:
For example a leaf turning to the sun. It seems to me that stored intelligence such as that would be considered innate intelligence.
The plant's movement is just a result of chemical reactions.
When you move your hand near a fire, your cells do not think "I'd better tell the brain it is warm!": instead the damaged cells react chemically to the heat which, in turn, sends an electro-chemical signal to the brain.
Their behaviour is as regular and predictable as the motion of a newton's cradle - no intelligence required.
The only thing that controls the chemical reactions are chemical laws/laws of physics.
Once certain conditions are met, the cells have no choice but to react in specific ways.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 9:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 10:18 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 50 of 303 (637779)
10-17-2011 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
10-17-2011 10:18 PM


GDR writes:
I agree that it isn't active intelliegence but it seems to me that a plant or my hand requires stored information or intelligence to react
The behaviour of chemicals inside the plant's cells are dependent on the laws of physics. They cannot behave in any other way.
A plant has a particular combination of chemicals+cells which when subjected to sunlight will rotate the plant to face the light.
If they have that particular combination of cells then they have no choice but to turn to the light - in the same way that ice has no choice but to melt when heated.
GDR writes:
A dead leaf doesn't turn towards the sun as the information has been lost.
This is because the chemical reactions have finished.
Think of it like paper: you can't burn paper twice.
The fire changes the paper chemically and it cannot be re-burnt.
A dead leaf is similar - it has changed chemically and can no longer turn to the light.
GDR writes:
It seems to me that the chemical reaction and the electro-chemical signal that you mentioned required stored information in the living cells of the plant to behave the way they do.
But it is just a chemical reaction.
If you stretch an elastic band and then release it, it will return to its original length.
Do you think that is because of stored information?
Or is it just the unavoidable behaviour of rubber due to its chemical composition?
GDR writes:
By the way, you're up late.
I only need 4-5 hours of sleep.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 10:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by zi ko, posted 10-18-2011 1:57 AM Panda has replied
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 2:34 AM Panda has replied
 Message 59 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 9:42 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 57 of 303 (637821)
10-18-2011 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by zi ko
10-18-2011 1:57 AM


zi ko writes:
Oversimplification and inappropriate using of analogues.
Since you seem reluctant or unable to explain or support your statement, I will simply assume the opposite position:
No, it is not an oversimplification and inappropriate using of analogues.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by zi ko, posted 10-18-2011 1:57 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 58 of 303 (637822)
10-18-2011 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by GDR
10-18-2011 2:34 AM


GDR writes:
Frankly even after googling around I don't understand the subject anywhere near well enough to debate you so if you don't mind I'll just ask another question.
I am a long way from being an expert.
I think I might simply have a couple more years of googling than you.
GDR writes:
My understanding is that the human body changes every cell in that body at least once every 7 years. (Which begs the question who is the real me. )
Different cells change at different speeds.
From what I have read, cerebral cortex neurons are the only cells never replaced - so they would seem a prime candidate for being the real you.
GDR writes:
This being the case then I assume that replacement cells require information gathered from outgoing cells to perform their required function in the body. Wouldn't that constitute information or stored intelligence?
As pointed out by Wounded King (above), information and intelligence are not the same.
Books contain information, but we would never consider them intelligent.
Cells can be created by a parent cell dividing into 2 daughter cells (these are duplicates of the parent cell) or by a stem cell dividing into 2 daughter cells (which are not identical to the stem cell).
The parent cell uses itself as a template for creating its 2 daughter cells.
I bow to WK's more learned description of where the stem cell gets it template from.
To expand a bit on 'information', it is very easy to confuse what we consider to be information and actually knowing something.
The soil in my garden is quite acidic. This is information.
But the plants don't know it is acidic. They don't know if they can or can't grow there.
A seed lands on my garden and either successfully grows or dies.
The plant doesn't know the information that the soil is acidic - it just reacts chemically to the acid in the soil.
There is no intelligence telling the plant to die - it is just a simple chemical reaction.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 2:34 AM GDR has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 61 of 303 (637870)
10-18-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Straggler
10-18-2011 9:42 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Straggler writes:
Are brain cells any different to what you have described above? Don't they obey the laws of physics? Can they behave in any other way?
In my honest (but uneducated) opinion: No - the brain cells are no different. They are affected by external inputs, but ultimately they will always respond in exactly the same way to the exact same stimuli.
If I was to kick you, your response is already established in your brain.
(I realised while writing my previous posts that there was a thin line between the bio-chemical machine that is a plant and the bio-chemical machine that is a human. The main difference I saw was the brain's cognitive abilities.)
Straggler writes:
If NOT being restricted by these things is the criteria for "intelligence" then can we really say that our brains, and thus we, are "intelligent"....?
Not being restricted by those things is not the criteria for intelligence.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 9:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 11:27 AM Panda has replied
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 1:48 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 63 of 303 (637873)
10-18-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Straggler
10-18-2011 11:27 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Straggler writes:
Fair enough.
So what is?
quote:
Wiki: Intelligence has been defined in different ways, including the abilities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, planning, emotional intelligence and problem solving.
None of those seem to describe a plant turning to the sun.
Straggler writes:
If human brains result in "intelligence" but individual cells don't what is it that we mean by "intelligence" in this context?
Zi ko's definition of 'intelligence' seems to be 'unknown and unevidenced mechanism'.
Straggler writes:
Just trying to prompt those who oppose him to think about what it is they actually mean.....
Yes - sometimes I get complacent and need a kick.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 11:27 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 11:50 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 11:59 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 137 of 303 (638247)
10-20-2011 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by GDR
10-18-2011 1:48 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
GDR writes:
A plant will always do the same thing. However, we are different. Without somebody telling us otherwise we would feel that it is fine to go out in the sun for long periods and would likely do so - once. Then we learn that even though our external inputs tell us it is good, it is actually bad for us. For us to learn not to do it again we not only need the memory of the first time but have to intelligently make a decision to get out of the sun to avoid sunburn.
My answer to this relates to the discussion Straggler and Jar are having about determinism.
I see the brain as a learning computer. You have your initial programming (nature) and the additional programming from external stimuli (nurture).
And, like a computer, when given a specific input you will give a specific output.
But I am finding it difficult to think of a perfect example, because the act of testing someone's response to an input will change their programming and therefore their next response may not be the same.
But to generalise: people always act in accordance with their nature (or programming).
GDR writes:
Where is that intelligence if it isn't in our cells?
All the definitions of intelligence require many cells.
It is a good example of something being greater than the sum of its parts.
The brain is not simply 1000's of unconnected cells - and neurons are unique in how they react to each other.
But I don't think that determinism and intelligence are mutually exclusive.
GDR by PM writes:
My question then would be if intelligence is from a combination of many cells, but there is no intelligence within an individual cell, then where is that intelligence emerging from?
You have almost answered your own question.
Intelligence is an 'Emergent Property'.
http://www.stewdean.com/alife/emergence.html (This link actually mentions the brain.)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=2008091406183...
It is the same as a 'Y' shaped piece of wood and an elastic band are not - individually - weapons.
But combine them and you have a hand-held catapult.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 1:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by GDR, posted 10-21-2011 12:00 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 139 of 303 (638272)
10-21-2011 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by GDR
10-21-2011 12:00 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
GDR writes:
Our moods which affect our decisions seem to change for no discernable reason, and that definitely affects our decisions. I agree that we can always make the argument that any decision that we make is the result of something that we were born with or were influenced by, but that just doesn't seem consistent with my life experience. JMHO
Our moods are caused by chemicals in our bodies.
They are another form of input to the brain.
They are many many factors that could affect our decisions, but the complexity of the inputs does not negate determinism.
GDR writes:
With my minimal understanding of QM I think it is clear that we don't live in a deterministic world. However, I suppose you can say they aren't mutually exclusive but it seems to me that determinism would make intelligence unnecessary, and if that is true then why would intelligence have evolved in the first place.
I was going to mention that in a previous post, but I decided it would just cloud the issue, as my knowledge of QM could be written on the back of a stamp with a crayon. But, I guess that QM could prove me wrong.
GDR writes:
OK. But the sling shot combines the existing components of the wood and elastic band. What particular qualities do cells have that when combined form intelligence, and for that matter consciousness, as emergent properties?
I don't really understand this question.
Maybe if you could answer this question for me, I would see what kind of answer you want:
What particular qualities does the wood and the elastic band have that when combined form a weapon?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by GDR, posted 10-21-2011 12:00 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 10-21-2011 10:53 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 158 of 303 (638317)
10-21-2011 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by GDR
10-21-2011 10:53 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
GDR writes:
but the complexity does make determinism less likely. My mood can be affected by the moods of another person or persons, whose mood is affected by other person or persons ad infinitum. In addition it is then affected by weather, how much sleep I got, the comment someone made to me yesterday, my health etc. All these are in addition to your point about chemicals in the body.
Yes, I agree with the almost infinite amount of 'inputs'.
But Determinism is completely unaffected by either simplicity or complexity. It is neither more nor less likely in a complex system.
One form of Determinism is Necessitarianism:
quote:
Necessitarianism is a metaphysical principle that denies all mere possibility; there is exactly one way for the world to be. It is the strongest member of a family of principles, including hard determinism, each of which deny free will, reasoning that human actions are predetermined by external or internal antecedents.
It is worth reading Wiki: Determinism as it goes into a lot more detail than I can.
GDR writes:
...I also want to repeat the point that determinism makes intelligence unnecessary and thus there would be no reason for it to evolve.
Natural Selection favours apes with brains.
Our brains evolved because mutations occurred to our ape ancestors.
The mutations occurred because of ambient radiation.
Ambient radiation existed because of how the earth was formed.
etc...
There is no 'necessity' involved.
GDR writes:
The wood provides a base on which to anchor the potential energy of the elastic. In order for cells to be the basis for emerging intelligence they have to have properties that allow for that to happen.
Neurons can make and break connections to other neurons creating different electro-chemical pathways through our brains. This results in giving us abilities that we class as 'intelligence' (e.g. problem solving, reasoning, learning, etc.).
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 10-21-2011 10:53 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Straggler, posted 10-21-2011 1:54 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 163 of 303 (638435)
10-22-2011 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by GDR
10-21-2011 9:44 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
GDR writes:
If the results are random then I think that's a pretty strong indicator that consciousnes of whatever kind, dictates the outcome.
To quote Wiki: (Emphasis mine)
quote:
Adequate determinism is the idea that quantum indeterminacy can be ignored for most macroscopic events. This is because of quantum decoherence. Random quantum events "average out" in the limit of large numbers of particles (where the laws of quantum mechanics asymptotically approach the laws of classical mechanics). Stephen Hawking explains a similar idea: he says that the microscopic world of quantum mechanics is one of determined probabilities. That is, quantum effects rarely alter the predictions of classical mechanics, which are quite accurate (albeit still not perfectly certain) at larger scales. Something as large as an animal cell, then, would be "adequately determined" (even in light of quantum indeterminacy).
If quantum indeterminacy affected larger events then wouldn't everything be random?
Objects would appear and disappear; pens would fall up or down; nothing could be anticipated.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by GDR, posted 10-21-2011 9:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by GDR, posted 10-22-2011 10:17 AM Panda has replied

  
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