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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2522 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 3 of 303 (637394)
10-15-2011 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by zi ko
10-14-2011 11:00 AM


innate intelligence
"Innate intelligence" is a chiropractic term, isn't it? A made up kind of magic that only chiropractors can manipulate.
It's one of those terms like "your body's natural balance" or "strengthens the immune system" which doesn't really mean anything and can be used by quacks and conmen to sell things without getting in trouble with the FDA

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 Message 1 by zi ko, posted 10-14-2011 11:00 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by zi ko, posted 10-16-2011 1:03 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2522 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 10 of 303 (637553)
10-16-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by zi ko
10-16-2011 1:03 PM


Re: innate intelligence
"Innate intelligence" is a chiropractic term, isn't it?
No it is not. I have given the definition in O.P
Okay, but let's be clear.
In Chiro - "Innate Intelligence" = "an undetectable mechanism inside the body which can not be verified experimentally, to which we attribute a non-specific host of functions."
In this scenario "Innate Intelligence" seems to be "an undetectable mechanism inside the body which can not be verified experimentally, to which we attribute a non-specific host of functions."
In chrio the functions include "energy blockage" and "wellness"
In this scenario the functions include "directed change in the genome"
But really, the claim doesn't seem to be any different.
"Innate Intelligence" is a label for a mechanism which doesn't exist.

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 Message 8 by zi ko, posted 10-16-2011 1:03 PM zi ko has replied

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 Message 14 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 9:33 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2522 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 24 of 303 (637667)
10-17-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by zi ko
10-17-2011 9:33 AM


Re: innate intelligence
[qs]They acquire information about external and internal conditions, transmit and process that information inside the cell, compute the appropriate biochemical or biomechanical response, and activate the molecules needed to execute that response. [qs] Zi, it seems like this claim is desperately in need of Occam's Razor.
I read this as:
1) Cells exist
2) Cells are exposed to "information"
3) Cells transfer that "information" to other cells
4) Cells think about that "information" and decide something
5) Cells produce a chemical/mechanical response
6) Cells tell other cells what do to
Why not this:
1) Cells exist
2) Cells are exposed to a chemical or mechanical phenomena
3) A reaction occurs resulting in a chemical or mechanical response
No need to attribute the cells with "thinking" at all.
If I apply heat to a piece of paper, it burns. I don't need to pretend that the paper is thinking about the heat and deciding on a response and telling the rest of the paper how to burn.

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 Message 14 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 9:33 AM zi ko has replied

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 Message 32 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 12:42 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2522 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 33 of 303 (637688)
10-17-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by zi ko
10-17-2011 12:42 PM


Re: innate intelligence
I t could be this way. But you then have to proceed a bit further.
as: chemical and mechanical phenomena from environment can regulate evolution.
That still would not require intelligence.
For example, if an organism were exposed to some chemical mutagen, the offspring it produced would likely have more mutations than the average offspring of a non-exposed individual.
That doesn't require any thinking on anyone's part. That's the chemical result of the exposure.

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 Message 32 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 12:42 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by zi ko, posted 10-18-2011 1:49 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2522 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 53 of 303 (637803)
10-18-2011 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by zi ko
10-18-2011 1:49 AM


Re: innate intelligence
There is here a tedency to oversimplification and using exambles no analogues to each other.That offspring does not rely only to mutation rate in its evolution. It is memory, decisin making, repairing, ineraction between information units,etc.
It's not oversimplification.
It's just reality.
You are suggesting mechanisms and abilities within cells when there is no evidence that such is present and no need for them to be present to accurately describe what is happening.
Thinking is clearly a human characteristic, but grades of it is met to animals, even lower ones, as well.
Yes, but we aren't talking about pigs or dolphins.
We are talking about individual cells.
There's no evidence that my (however many) skin cells are each involved in independent thought.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2522 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 80 of 303 (637910)
10-18-2011 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 4:15 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Morality is a human construct and would not apply to a non human intelligence. Some believe that regardless of the orgin of intelligence that there is a objective morality and eventually a moral code would evolve. Sound nice and gives one a warm fuzzy, but I doubt it. Nah the machines would find us either useful or not. Lets hope the first and not the latter.
I would suspect that, unless programmed otherwise, AI would rely on utilitarianism as a moral code. Which outcome is greater? Okay, that's what we do.
It may not be a form of morality that humans will like very much, but it is morality.

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 Message 79 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 4:15 PM 1.61803 has replied

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 Message 82 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 5:07 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2522 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 83 of 303 (637913)
10-18-2011 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 5:07 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Might I suggest that AI would not have any such use for a moral code. Moral code meaning a defined set for good/right and bad/wrong. In regards to ethics, standards, and moral considerations as opposed to practical considerations. I believe AI would be indifferent to judgement choices and operate strictly on a practical as you said utilitarian based algorhythms. Which outcome is greater is not the same as which outcome is morally bankrupt and which is ethically correct. A machine would give two shits about the destruction of Alderaan where as Ben Kenobi felt a disturbance in the force.
Utilitarianism is a moral code, it just has a different means of measuring what is "moral" or "ethical" which is antithetical to most other forms of morality.
In utilitarianism, if killing 100,000 people will allow 100,001 other people to survive, then load up the laser cannons.

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 Message 82 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 5:07 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
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