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Author | Topic: The Awesome Obama Thread II | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Subtitled: Bush Jr.'s Third Term in Office
xongsmith writes: The United States of America is officially completely DEAD now. We can all go home and shake our heads at an experiment only 234 years old with apparently wonderful lofty ideals that has now succumbed finally to the forces of greed & viciousness. The final nail in the coffin was delivered by none other than that slimy insidious double agent for the Filthy Rich running the United States, Barack Obama. What xongsmith said.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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Rahvin writes: He [Obama] didn't submit his own plan, he didn't veto plans that didn't go far enough. CF writes: Jesus Christ, why would he veto a plan that didn't go far enough? That makes no fucking sense unless your goal, like Dronester, isn't to actually do anything in government to help people's lives, it's to live out a fantasy of proxy martyrdom watching the President die on hill after hill. You mean like stopping child torture? Is that what you mean by government helping people's lives? Well, perhaps in your parent's household there were frequent child beatings (I wonder why) and you consider that to be "normal". But I come from a family who believes that child torture is kind'a a bad thing. And thus, this is one hill I would like Obama to die on.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Crash writes: I'm specifically referring to ending the practice of torturing children with diseases by not paying for them to be treated. Hmm, strange. You really believe that the usa government pays/acts to infect children with torturous diseases like it pays/acts to torture children? Wow. Great analogy Pops.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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Perd writes: The fact is, we live in a country with differing views, At the moment, it seems like just two views: 1%ers and 99%ers. Which does Obama serve?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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Drone writes: You really believe that the usa government pays/acts to infect children with torturous diseases like it pays/acts to torture children? Crash writes: Sure, in that the government doesn't do either of those things. You are so incredibly lame. (cough, cough, Omar Khadr) From your previous post Message 167:
Crash writes: When a majority of Americans support torture, you get torture, regardless of how liberal your president is. The Federal government is fundamentally structured to privilege conservative outcomes, such as torture of children. Seems like you are having a difficult time keeping your "counter-points" straight. Is Obama continuing the policy of Bush Jr.'s children torturing or not? Under the Bush Jr. and Obama administrations, Bagram, Guantanamo Bay, and other secret rendition sites still operate to perform child torture. As an american, it's especially repugnant to me. For some reason, (like the immorally huge military defense budget), for democrat voters, child torture isn't really a deal breaker with Obama. IMO, I believe republican voters secretly LIKE the idea of child torture, . . . very, very much. Since Crash has spent so much time "defending" Obama on his pro-child torture, even going so far to lie about Crash's previous stance, I can only imagine Crash is pro-child torture too. Can I have a quick poll of participant replies to answer (I'd reeeally like to know):1. Child torture is NOT a deal breaker with me regarding voting for Obama?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Rahvin writes: That said, I'm not entirely certain that Obama has continued the Bush Administration's policies specifically regarding torture for suspected terrorists, with extraordinary renditions, waterboarding, and the like. Are you aware, and if so, what's your source? Rahvin, what type of source are you looking for? . . . Since america's "pullout" (we still employ ten's of thousands of US paid merceneries in Iraq, let alone the thousands of military consultants employed at the "embassy," (so much for "ending the Iraqi occupation" campaign promise)), I cannot be sure right now if america is still 100% responsible for atrocities happening in Bagram, Iraq. But as far as Guantanamo Bay, it's illegalities/crimes are still open for business (despite campaign promises) and more importantly, secret extraordinary rendition to countries that DO practice torture are still used by Obama:
quote: Extraordinary rendition - Wikipedia
Rahvin writes: The incumbent is bad, the opposition is significantly worse, so I'll wind up voting for the lesser of two evils, as usual. Grrr.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
If only america kept video-tape records when america tortured "suspects." Whoops . . .
Justice Dept. Says CIA Destroyed 92 Torture TapesFree Inmate & Jail Records
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
So, you are pro-child torture if the child is 15 or older?
How about 14? Is 12 old enough for torture?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Jar writes: What have I posted that suggests I favor torture under any conditions or do you just enjoy misrepresenting what others post? It seemed to me you made an issue solely of the age of a torture suspect. My error, my apologies.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Regarding the age:
quote: There is NO video-tape evidence of him being tortured that I know of. However affidavits state . . .
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote:
The Torture of Omar Khadr, a Child in Bagram and Guantnamo | Andy Worthington Since america has "dirty hands" of destroying torture video-tape evidence, I'm INCLINED to believe the affidavits. What about you?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Crash writes: "Rendition" is not a synonym for "torture." Yeah america always sends prisoners to Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Israel when america wants the prisoner to be merely "renditioned". Sooo lame.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Err, the tapes were from another torture incident. There are sooo many torture incidents, it is hard to keep track of.
But you are correct, I cannot know 100% that torture has taken place in this specific incident. I can only weigh the supporting evidence: 1. affidavits2. witness testimony 3. dirty hands of america 4. the OBAMA administration has decided to press ahead with Khadr’s trial
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
What's the point of the following? Did you concede that Obama's america tortures children or not?
Crash writes:
When a majority of Americans support torture, you get torture, regardless of how liberal your president is. The Federal government is fundamentally structured to privilege conservative outcomes, such as torture of children.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Thanks for the replies Rahvin.
(Just some extra info: Khadr isn't some rare example. In 2003, at least 22 juveniles were held at Guantnamo. Age of the youngest prisoner at Guantanomo Bay; 13. Age of youngest prisoner to commit suicide at Guantanamo Bay; captured at 16, died at 21.)
Drone writes: the OBAMA administration has decided to press ahead with Khadr’s trial Rahvin writes: This is irrelevant to your assertion, which was that Obama supported child torture. I think it is relevant because: 1. Obama, not Bush Jr. pressed ahead with the trial, by MILITARY COMMISSION, of Omar Khadr. 2. It concerns the charges against Khadr. One side should not be able to unilaterally label the suspect as a terrorist. Thusly, military commissions are fundamentally flawed. Yet Obama (a constitutional law professor?) still champions this cause. 3. However, Khadre's case is not the type of case Obama would want to proudly hang as good evidence from torture and military trials. It is claimed that the embarrassed Obama administration was actively seeking a plea agreement to make the case less visible. "President Obama has failed to make good on his own promises to close Guantanamo Bay or to fix the unfair military commission system. Powerful interests, including some in the Pentagon, are gung-ho on obtaining whatever convictions they possibly can — even if it’s just a wrongly accused child soldier. To date, President Obama has lacked the courage and leadership to stop them." zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information. Yes, again, I concede that this does not PROVE 100% that Obama directly supports child torture. But c'mon! Obama has been TIGHTLY in lock-step with Bush Jr.. The evidence is well beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even Crashfrog conceded it. 1. In feb 2010, to defend a lawsuit brought by several men subjected to "extraordinary rendition" and torture, Obama invoked Bush Jr's ol' "state secrets doctrine". 2. The ARBITRARY detention and torture of prisoners, and the complete lack of accountability for the crimes committed by the previous administration acknowledge the failure of the Obama administration to live up to their human rights obligations. 3. Despite President Obama’s pledge to close Gauntonimo Bay, there is no indication from authorities or Congress that they will ever do so. Instead, Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), which included an amendment that authorized indefinite detention. Obama added a signing statement that his administration would not apply the detention language to U.S. citizens. But what about future Presidents? Instead of signing the NDAA, Obama should have vetoed the bill and reexamined the original AUMF for its serious breach of civil liberties. 4. Obama didn't want american soldiers to leave Iraq. He wanted to change Bush Jr's agreement and have the soldiers stay while having complete immunity from crimes they commit. Crimes like rape, torture, murder. Please read the atrocities of Haditha and Fallujah. Does this sound like a person who is against mere child torture? 5. Under Obama, in Afghanistan, U.S.-led special forces often kill schoolchildren in night time raids. 6. Obama, the president, took an oath to uphold the constitution and its laws. Obama becomes responsible for Bush Jr.'s crimes if Obama allows the perpetrators to walk free. When Obama was a senator, he did not join Kucinich in the 35 articles of impeachment against Bush Jr.. Thus, by omission and/or dereliction of duties, Obama DID support Bush Jr's torture of children. Am I to believe a person who stepped up the use of drone attacks which have killed wedding parties in the past and continues to kill innocent civilians somehow simultaneously cares about children?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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strag writes: What I naively thought was that Obama would be a politician who would shape the political agenda rather than be continually thwarted by it. "Thwarted by it"? I'd be thrilled if that was the case. My dear ol' Straggler, Obama has ADVANCED the "conservative" (corporatist/fascist) agenda. More posts to come.
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