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Author Topic:   Evolution/design of human teeth
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 31 of 41 (647029)
01-07-2012 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by DrJones*
01-07-2012 7:47 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
But people with two copies of the recessive gene still reproduce.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by DrJones*, posted 01-07-2012 7:47 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by DrJones*, posted 01-07-2012 8:04 PM foreveryoung has responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1645
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 32 of 41 (647033)
01-07-2012 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by foreveryoung
01-07-2012 7:58 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
right, cause sickle cell anemia, while fatal, is not an immediate barrier to reproduction.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 7:58 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 8:59 PM DrJones* has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 33 of 41 (647037)
01-07-2012 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by foreveryoung
01-07-2012 7:41 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Sickle cell anemia is fatal and occurs in people in their reproductive years, and yet continues to be passed down genetically.

It continues to be passed down genetically because carrying only one sickle cell gene provides a fitness benefit in that it makes the carrier more resistant to malaria. That's why the trait is more commonly found in those from areas where malaria is more prevalent.

One would expect that if an intelligent designer had something to do with this, the malaria resistance would be present without the accompanying anemia disease. The fact that instead we see a mutation that's good enough to do the job but certainly not in an optimal manner is evidence that it evolved rather than was created.

Of course, I'm just basing my conclusions on evidence and reasoning and not a centuries old book, so I might be mistaken.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 7:41 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 8:56 PM subbie has responded

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 34 of 41 (647041)
01-07-2012 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by subbie
01-07-2012 8:18 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
The intelligent designer that designed the universe did not design sickle cell anemia. He introduced mutation into his creation, let orgamisms take on different purposes from that which they were designed to do. I don't believe the mosquito was ever created. It evolved from a creature that was perfectly designed to live in a world where they didn't need to suck the blood of other organisms in order to survive.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 8:18 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 9:07 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 35 of 41 (647042)
01-07-2012 8:57 PM


Of course, I'm just basing my conclusions on evidence and reasoning .

Which goes to show you that if you use faulty reasoning, you get faulty conclusions, which you so aptly demonstrated.


    
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 36 of 41 (647043)
01-07-2012 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by DrJones*
01-07-2012 8:04 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Which goes to show you that traits that reduce fitness can be passed down. This goes against what trixie was trying to demonstrate with hodgkins disease and teeth problems.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by DrJones*, posted 01-07-2012 8:04 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by DrJones*, posted 01-07-2012 9:04 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 39 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 9:18 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 40 by Trixie, posted 01-07-2012 9:53 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1645
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 37 of 41 (647044)
01-07-2012 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by foreveryoung
01-07-2012 8:59 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Which goes to show you that traits that reduce fitness can be passed down. This goes against what trixie was trying to demonstrate with hodgkins disease and teeth problems.

Not at all. Trixie's post was in support of this:

It's fatal, yet it continues to be passed on because it only begins to manifest itself well after reproductive age, usually starting in mid forties. By the time someone knows they carry the gene the've already had children, 50% of whom will also carry it.

So we're stuck with our teeth that are prone to caries and awful abscesses. They can keep us going long enough to pass on these teeth to our offspring without modification.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 8:59 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 38 of 41 (647045)
01-07-2012 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by foreveryoung
01-07-2012 8:56 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
RAmen

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 8:56 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 39 of 41 (647049)
01-07-2012 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by foreveryoung
01-07-2012 8:59 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Thank you for demonstrating with such blinding clarity that you have nothing of value to offer.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 8:59 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1091 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 40 of 41 (647051)
01-07-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by foreveryoung
01-07-2012 8:59 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
foreveryoung writes:

Which goes to show you that traits that reduce fitness can be passed down. This goes against what trixie was trying to demonstrate with hodgkins disease and teeth problems.

You need to read more carefully. I was using Huntington's disease(note that Huntington's disease is not Hodgkin's disease nor is it even remotely similar) as as example to illustrate how traits that reduce fitness can be passed down. How does this go against you saying that traits which reduce fitness can be passed down?

The reason I used Huntington's disease is that it is inherited in an autosomal dominant fashion, i.e., you only need one copy of the faulty gene to succumb to the disease. The point I was trying to make is that even if a trait is 100% fatal it will not be eliminated from a population if it only manifests itself after reproductive age has been reached.

Given that most people manage to get to reproductive age without suffering from terminal dental caries, there is little selective pressure for our teeth to have changed.

ABE I hit the "Cheers" button on foreveryoung's post while attempting to hit the "Jeers" button. If his post is an example of how carefully he reads other people's posts before replying, I wonder how carefully he's examined the evidence for the ToE.

Edited by Trixie, : Sorting out the "Cheers" and "Jeers" mistake

Edited by Trixie, : Spealing and rypos!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by foreveryoung, posted 01-07-2012 8:59 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by greentwiga, posted 07-17-2012 5:29 AM Trixie has not yet responded

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 812 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 41 of 41 (668093)
07-17-2012 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Trixie
01-07-2012 9:53 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Has anyone read that book, "Catching Fire" about how learning to cook changed mankind? It says that we don't have the teeth or digestive system for eating raw vegetables only, nor do we have the teeth and jaws of a carnivore. I opur problem that we like a too soft diet?

I liked the post about eating a coarser diet leading to no cavities but there is another point. I lived for three years in the rift valley, where humans are said to have evolved. The water there is 10 ppm of fluoride and higher. My older 3 kids were young then (their adult teeth were forming) and even now have almost no cavities. If we evolved to drink water with 10 ppm of Fluoride and then, reletively recently moved to areas with no fluoride, we would have teeth problems


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Trixie, posted 01-07-2012 9:53 PM Trixie has not yet responded

    
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