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Author Topic:   Evolution/design of human teeth
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11638
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 16 of 41 (640919)
11-14-2011 10:50 AM


Mitch on teeth
quote:
I hate flossing. I just wish I had one long curvy tooth.

It didnt need to be split up. They didnt have to make separations with me...

But then if my tooth would have fell out, it been bad.

-Mitch Hedberg


quote:
I have a few cavities. I dont like to call em cavities. I like to call them places to put stuff.

Do know where I can store a pea?... Yes, I have locations available.

-Mitch Hedberg



Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by frako, posted 11-14-2011 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply
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frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 17 of 41 (640920)
11-14-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
11-14-2011 10:50 AM


Re: Mitch on teeth
Do know where I can store a pea?... Yes, I have locations available.

haha laughed out loud on that one


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 18 of 41 (640933)
11-14-2011 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
11-14-2011 10:50 AM


Re: Mitch on teeth
I hate flossing. I just wish I had one long curvy tooth.

It didnt need to be split up. They didnt have to make separations with me...

Mitch Hedberg has a point.

Our teeth are evolved from teeth that were evolved to catch fish with one's mouth --- lots of small sharp points. We don't do that, and yet we have separate teeth rather than one long curvy tooth.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Portillo
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 19 of 41 (645284)
12-24-2011 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
11-12-2011 2:56 PM


Are you sure your not confusing intelligent design with optimum design? Optimum design is perfect design which doesnt really exist. For example a car or computer is intelligently design but that doesnt mean it will never breakdown or have faults. The argument that "God wouldnt have done it that way" seems like a questionable way of proving that man isnt a machine.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

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Tangle
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Posts: 4945
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 20 of 41 (645295)
12-25-2011 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Portillo
12-24-2011 11:08 PM


portillo writes:

Are you sure your not confusing intelligent design with optimum design? Optimum design is perfect design which doesnt really exist.

Why would a perfect God use a less than perfect design?

The argument that "God wouldnt have done it that way" seems like a questionable way of proving that man isnt a machine

You have it the wrong way around. We now know that man evolved like all other life on earth, it's just interesting to point out that the counter argument - that he was created fully formed by an all powerful, all knowing and perfect, supernatural being - doesn't even make sense in it's own terms.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life.

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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1862 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 21 of 41 (645782)
12-30-2011 12:54 AM


In the original creation we were just not to eat meat.
Then since we would live forever our teeth would be too strong to be damaged or easily replace themselves in a way not happening now.
After the flood we only then started eating meat and this further changed our mouth/jaw which today is probably the reason for wisdom teeth problems.
Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Admin, posted 12-30-2011 8:06 AM Robert Byers has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
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Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 22 of 41 (645803)
12-30-2011 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Robert Byers
12-30-2011 12:54 AM


Hi Robert,

Unless you have evidence for anything you say, such as that ancient humans did not eat meat, or that immortality was ever a factor, or that there were changes in our mouth/jaw just a few thousand years ago, please stop participating in this thread.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1862 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 23 of 41 (646276)
01-03-2012 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Admin
12-30-2011 8:06 AM


This is a creationist opinion.
This evolution verses creation forum.

The investigation from me starts from creationist presumptions of biblical boundaries.`
Then investigation of my own which i desceribe by my reasonings.

Its a creationist presumption that men only ate meat after the flood and not before.
To ban this is to ban creationist commentary on a evolution creation forum !!?

The great change in diet then can be said to be shown in modern teeth issues concerning wisdom teeth.`````
It follows and more easily explains or even predicts human teeth problems could only be indeed a problem if there was a diet change that forced a change in the jaw/teeth area.
Its a good creationist point.


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Coyote
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Posts: 5925
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 24 of 41 (646281)
01-04-2012 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Robert Byers
01-03-2012 9:54 PM


"Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Its a creationist presumption that men only ate meat after the flood and not before.

You have presented no scientific evidence to support this "presumption."

On the contrary, there is a great deal of evidence to show that you are entirely wrong.

The great change in diet then can be said to be shown in modern teeth issues concerning wisdom teeth.`````
It follows and more easily explains or even predicts human teeth problems could only be indeed a problem if there was a diet change that forced a change in the jaw/teeth area.
Its a good creationist point.

This "good creationist point" is not supported by evidence.

Changes of diet did occur, but it is well documented as to what the changes were, and when they occurred. Your "no meat before the flood" is shown by the evidence to be incorrect.

If you disagree, because this is the Science Forum, you are required to present some evidence.

You can't just recite catechisms and expect us all to shout, "Amen!"


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1862 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 25 of 41 (646669)
01-06-2012 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Coyote
01-04-2012 12:00 AM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
its not just a science forum but a evolution verses creation forum.
By your line of reasoning there could be no creationist defence since your saying always creationism is not scientific.
A very strange forum it would be.

The bible is a starting presumption for creationism.
One could say the bible or creationism have the right to make hypothesis as anyone.
Then attack our methodology or conclusions.

The bible says man only began to eat meat after the flood.
Therefore its likely this meant a change in the teeth which would affect the whole head/jaw.
Today we have wisdom teeth problems and so its reasonable to conclude this is from the diet change and explains this unique problem.
The wisdom teeth were not for eating meat however the switch to eating meat crowded them out as other teeth became important.

Why not?


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5925
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 26 of 41 (646681)
01-06-2012 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Robert Byers
01-06-2012 1:09 AM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
The bible is a starting presumption for creationism.

Sorry to hear that. This means you are wrong from the start.

One could say the bible or creationism have the right to make hypothesis as anyone.

Sure, but then you have to test those hypotheses against real world evidence, and discard them if they are contradicted by the evidence. That's where creationism fails.

Then attack our methodology or conclusions.

I presume you mean "They attack..." We attack your methodology because it is apologetics, not the scientific method. What do you expect us to do?

The bible says man only began to eat meat after the flood.

The bible is wrong.

Therefore its likely this meant a change in the teeth which would affect the whole head/jaw.

Humans and their ancestors have largely the same teeth going back several million years. The purported flood was some 4,350 years ago. The bible is wrong again.

Today we have wisdom teeth problems and so its reasonable to conclude this is from the diet change and explains this unique problem.

"Wisdom teeth" are nothing more than molars, which you can find in primate ancestors going back many millions of years. The bible is wrong again.

The wisdom teeth were not for eating meat however the switch to eating meat crowded them out as other teeth became important.

The switch to soft foods crowded the rear molars. In "primitive" diets, which are practiced in many cultures today, where tough or gritty foods are eaten there is something called interstitial wear, caused by the teeth moving up and down in their sockets very slightly as tough foods are chewed. This causes wear between adjacent teeth (interstitial wear), which when combined with mesial drift (the gradual movement of teeth forward) leaves plenty of room for the third molars.

Looks like the bible is wrong once more, as are you.

If you would study these things instead of just making things up you'd do better here. (But then, see signature...)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1862 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 27 of 41 (646884)
01-07-2012 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
01-06-2012 1:58 AM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Thats fine and makes my point.
these other peoples show its diet that can be seen as the origin for teeth issues.
We don't have the room because we eat meat or not the other suff.
We don't eat the other stuff because we have a better meat diet.
After the flood this was the big deal and so much so we have unique issues with teeth.

Just knowing the biblical verses here one could predict a likely problem in the teeth area.


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Trixie
Member (Idle past 1199 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 28 of 41 (646889)
01-07-2012 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Robert Byers
01-07-2012 5:29 AM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Just knowing the biblical verses here one could predict a likely problem in the teeth area.

So produce 'em.

In evolutionary terms anything that doesn't cause a problem until after the age of reproduction won't get selected against. The prime example of this is Huntington's disease which is inherited in an autosomal dominant manner. It's fatal, yet it continues to be passed on because it only begins to manifest itself well after reproductive age, usually starting in mid forties. By the time someone knows they carry the gene the've already had children, 50% of whom will also carry it.

So we're stuck with our teeth that are prone to caries and awful abscesses. They can keep us going long enough to pass on these teeth to our offspring without modification.

As to why we don't grow more teeth underneath to replace bad ones, it seems to be something that would be selected against if it had ever happened or started to change. Our bite is very complex. Our teeth are a mixture of carnivore and herbivore and to work well together have a very small tolerance to any change in the size, angle or position of molar cusps. The top molars and bottom molars have to fit together well and all teeth are subject to the same wear so they still function with their partner. A new, unworn tooth appearing would cause havoc. I know this courtesy of an idiot dentist who filled a lower molar, but left the filling too high. The only place in my mouth where my teeth met was the raised filling and the molar above it. I spent a week on soup, none of my other teeth could function at all and even talking and swallowing were difficult. The thought of that happening on a regular basis as replacement teeth grow in makes me shiver.


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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 37 days)
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 29 of 41 (647024)
01-07-2012 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Trixie
01-07-2012 6:49 AM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Sickle cell anemia is fatal and occurs in people in their reproductive years, and yet continues to be passed down genetically.
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1669
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 30 of 41 (647026)
01-07-2012 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by foreveryoung
01-07-2012 7:41 PM


Re: "Good creationist points" and other catechisms
Sickle cell anemia is fatal and occurs in people in their reproductive years, and yet continues to be passed down genetically.

Sickle cell anemia is caused by having two copies of a recessive gene, those carrying only 1 recessive gene can pass it on to their offspring. Those people with sickle cell anemia will have their lifespan shortened to ~40 years or so, which is more than enough time to reproduce and pass on the recessive sickle cell genes

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


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