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Author | Topic: Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Nothing happens without God, but God can do nothing evil in the sense of sin. That's scriptural. These things are beyond human understanding, I'm just trying to say what I get out of Calvin and I may get a lot of it wrong.
God is love but in relation to sin He is wrathful, and in fact that is an expression of His nature as love since sin opposes love. Acts of wrath follow from the enmity against Him which is our sin nature, which we all share from birth. I think of it all more "in the nature of things" meaning inevitable cause and effect that results from the nature of God as love and goodness, and the nature of good and evil, than in terms of God's motivations as such, but I may have that wrong too. The idea, however, is that something in the very nature of Creation of sentient beings seems to lead to this enmity against God which provokes His wrath, and yet the only alternative would be for Him never to have created anything. You are seeing all this as evil in God, I am not. God to me is love, goodness, faithfulness, mercy and everything else that's good.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Obviously sin cannot be willed by God if it deserves punishment. That would be God playing with humans as toys, punishing them for the things he made them do.
quote: But why would that be ? It doesn't seem to be a logical necessity - and if it was, the saved would have to be enemies of God forever, even after the Final Judgement. But if it is not a logical necessity it must be God's choice. And that changes everything.
quote: But that's not true. We've said what we see as evil and why.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm trying to account for how God could in any sense be the originator of any acts of sin considering that God can't sin and yet Calvin says God is the originator, at least according to Dr. A's quote. my answer being that the "evil" God does, which means calamity and not sin (Isaiah 45), is all punitive, it is not originative, sin originates in humanity. So the sense in which God is in any kind of sinfulness, since nothing can happen without Him, and yet He cannot sin, still needs to be sorted out.
But Dr. A's quote is probably in error or out of context. Here's another quote from Calvin that seems to disagree with those given by Dr. A:
. . . the Lord had declared that "everything that he had made . . . was exceedingly good" [Gen. 1:31]. Whence, then comes this wickedness to man, that he should fall away from his God? Lest we should think it comes from creation, God had put His stamp of approval on what had come forth from himself. By his own evil intention, then, man corrupted the pure nature he had received from the Lord; and by his fall drew all his posterity with him into destruction. Accordingly, we should contemplate the evident cause of condemnation in the corrupt nature of humanity-which is closer to us-rather than seek a hidden and utterly incomprehensible cause in God's predestination. [Institutes, 3:23:8] This is from John MacArthur . He says God is not the author of evil, which is scriptural, that He "permits evil agents to act" but this does imply a degree of free will in the creature that seems to be excluded by Calvin's way of putting it in the quotes given by Dr. A at least. However, something like this must be true because scripture is very clear that God is not the author of sin. Sin originates in the creature, however we are supposed to understand this. These things are true according to scripture: God is love; God is good.God is not the author of sin. He is the author of calamity which results from sin. Is. 45. Humanity is the originator of sin. MacArthur says sin is just a lack of moral perfection in a fallen creature, but how this goes together with what we are discussing here I'm not sure. I just have to conclude that this is where the discussion becomes too abstract and philosophical and beyond my ability to follow it. But I'll have to think more about what Calvin seems to be saying in the quotes given by Dr. A. Since nothing happens without God, and yet God is not the author of sin, how does sin happen? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The idea, however, is that something in the very nature of Creation of sentient beings seems to lead to this enmity against God which provokes His wrath, and yet the only alternative would be for Him never to have created anything.
But why would that be ? Well, first, it's just my way of trying to account for how sin can exist, God be sovereign over all things and yet not the author of sin. But I'm quite willing to be wrong about this.
It doesn't seem to be a logical necessity - and if it was, the saved would have to be enemies of God forever, even after the Final Judgement. I don't get this at all. Salvation is a transformation, a rebirth of the spirit which is of the nature of God. Our sin nature is ended by our faith in Christ's death and resurrection, we are made new creatures, reborn into an entirely new kind of life than that we were born to in the flesh.
But if it is not a logical necessity it must be God's choice. And that changes everything. Well, according to scripture it can't be.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: To do that it would have to say that God does not control the actions motivated by this assumed emnity.
quote: Then you don't understand logical necessity. You can't be transformed into something that cannot exist.
quote: OK, so scripture says you're wrong.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm happy to be wrong about the whole mess. I hate arguments about Calvinism, always end up sorry I got into it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
You hate the arguments because your views don't make sense. Dropping Calvinism would be the obvious solution - after all there are other, less problematic interpretations of scripture. But I doubt you'll do that.
I suppose that's your problem all over. You hate being wrong but won't make the effort to be right.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're so charming and gracious.
No, these arguments just get into territory that is beyond human understanding, but Calvinism's main principles are still demonstrably scriptural.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Insisting that you are correct in some way that nobody can understand is not much of an argument. Especially when the problems aren't exactly complicated.
And if Calvin's positions are contradicted by scripture as well as supported by it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Calvin knew the Bible thoroughly. There is no way any of his positions contradict scripture. The task is to figure out how he meant the things that seem to be contradictory. That's also the task where people find contradictions within scripture because we know it's God's word and therefore there aren't any. Not that I expect such reasonableness from unbelievers in Bible inerrancy of course, but that's the only way the Biblical revelation can be understood.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: That's also the task where people find contradictions within scripture because we know it's God's word and therefore there aren't any. Faith, you do understand that many here have actually read the Bible and so can honestly report on what is actually written, including all of the contradiction, factual errors and failed prophecies. The fact that you know there are no errors is just another example of you being totally out of touch with reality. Now if you change that to "That's also the task where people find contradictions within scripture because we believe it's God's word and therefore there aren't any." then even though folk will know you are simply wrong they will accept that it is your belief. Edited by jar, : hear ----> here appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sorry jar I don't buy your totally antichristian thinking that fools some people but not me. The Bible IS inerrant, and Calvin knew that too. There are no contradictions in it, those are all in your mind.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: And as usual you can't be bothered to find out the truth. Do the research. There are plenty of Christians who'll argue against Calvin Bible.
quote: There's nothing reasonable about twisting the "word of God" to fit with your beliefs.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
quote: quote: Faith, which of those two passages is inerrant? Are two and seven the same number? Which number is correct? Edited by jar, : appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're a typical Bible trasher. There is no contradiction. The first says they will go by twos and ALL WILL GO BY TWOS, only the clean ones will go by sevens, which is made specific in the next chapter. NOBODY has a problem with this except a typical Bible trasher like you who doesn't have a clue about the conventions of scripture.
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