Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?

To follow the line of thinking I've been pursuing here that I think is Calvin's way of thinking, the propensity to oppose God was already in the created man, what God did was allow it, arrange it, guide it, control it, rule it, govern it, and all those other words Dr A has been quoting from Calvin.

Then you obviously don't understand Calvin's thinking at all. Just from quotes presented here.:The wickedness that motivated the Fall did not come from creation. It was however intentionally arranged by God. And everything done - including every sinful action - is ordained by God. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

But it is a system of theology. And what Calvin says is this:* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.* Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. The modesty of those who are thus alarmed at the appearance of absurdity might perhaps be excused, did they not endeavour to vindicate the justice of God from every semblance of stigma by defending an untruth. It seems absurd that man should be blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness. Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God. He himself, however, openly declaring that he does this, repudiates the evasion. That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.* God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments.* With regard to secret movements, what Solomon says of the heart of a king, that it is turned hither and thither, as God sees meet, certainly applies to the whole human race, and has the same force as if he had said, that whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God. And certainly, did he not work internally in the minds of men, it could not have been properly said, that he takes away the lip from the true, and prudence from the agedtakes away the heart from the princes of the earth, that they wander through devious paths.* But nothing can be clearer than the many passages which declare, that he blinds the minds of men, and smites them with giddiness, intoxicates them with a spirit of stupor, renders them infatuated, and hardens their hearts.* Satan himself performs his part, just as he is impelled [...] Satan is also said to blind the minds of those who believe not (2 Cor. 4:4). But how so, unless that a spirit of error is sent from God himself, making those who refuse to obey the truth to believe a lie?* God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections.* These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.* I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself.* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.So what are we to say --- that Calvin was right when he said it, but I'm wrong when I quote him saying that "the sum of the whole is this"? I'm just quoting what he said. If there is an error, it is on his part.

I've already answered all that.

Really, what seems to be going on is this. You say that Calvin is right and the Arminians are wrong. Then I quote Calvin at you. Then you explain to me that Calvin's words should be interpreted as though he was an Arminian and not a Calvinist. Well, Calvin was a Calvinist. I'm fairly sure.

I've already answered all that too. God created the entire Creation and after that governed how it operates. GOVERNS, RULES etc etc etc.including the Fall which came about by a propensity in the created man himself. You've been answered.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

GOVERNED. That's not Arminianism that's Calvinism.

That's what I was trying to get you to agree with.So ... as I said ...Now, the only difference between me and Calvin --- so far as this conversation goes --- is that he thinks he is pious in saying this, whereas I think he is unwittingly presenting a reductio ad absurdum of Christianity. He writes: "Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God". Let us leave aside the genocides and the serial killers for once, and consider this: in that case, every time a teenager conceives of a dirty little fantasy to masturbate over, God thought of it first. Before the foundations of the Earth were laid, before the heavens were spread, God's sublime wisdom and infinite holiness were dedicated to thinking out what little Johnny would think about his hot cousin while he was jerking it. And in his infinite wisdom he came up with a detailed fantasy of anal rape. God thought of it first."Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."

And that's the bit that you are apparently trying to deny.

And I missed it ! OK where did you prove that Calvin was lying about his own beliefs ?

That's been answered. God GOVERNS, does not originate our fallen ideas. And that is Calvinism, not Arminianism. BASED ON YOUR OWN QUOTES OF CALVIN.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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That's been answered. God GOVERNS, does not originate our fallen ideas

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If everything done is ordained by God that must include all our actions. But if our ideas could influence our actions independently of God that would not be true. And of course, according to Calvin that we have fallen ideas is God's fault anyway.

* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.* Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. The modesty of those who are thus alarmed at the appearance of absurdity might perhaps be excused, did they not endeavour to vindicate the justice of God from every semblance of stigma by defending an untruth. It seems absurd that man should be blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness. Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God. He himself, however, openly declaring that he does this, repudiates the evasion. That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.* God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments.* With regard to secret movements, what Solomon says of the heart of a king, that it is turned hither and thither, as God sees meet, certainly applies to the whole human race, and has the same force as if he had said, that whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God. And certainly, did he not work internally in the minds of men, it could not have been properly said, that he takes away the lip from the true, and prudence from the agedtakes away the heart from the princes of the earth, that they wander through devious paths.* But nothing can be clearer than the many passages which declare, that he blinds the minds of men, and smites them with giddiness, intoxicates them with a spirit of stupor, renders them infatuated, and hardens their hearts.* Satan himself performs his part, just as he is impelled [...] Satan is also said to blind the minds of those who believe not (2 Cor. 4:4). But how so, unless that a spirit of error is sent from God himself, making those who refuse to obey the truth to believe a lie?* God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections.* These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.* I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself.* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.But how can he govern Johnny's ideas without originating them? He decides that Johnny should think a thing, then he makes him think it. That means that God thought of it first. "Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God". And "God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases".Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Let's use an example.2 Kings 23-24:

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(KJV)

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23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

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24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

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Here's the NIV for a different wording:

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(NIV)

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23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. Get out of here, baldy! they said. Get out of here, baldy!

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24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

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So Elisha gets teased by some kids, he curses them in the name of the Lord, and then two bears come out and kill 42 kids.Did God do that? Kill 42 kids for teasing a guy?Did God set it up in advance? Or was He just following Elisha's (fallen) orders?What's the Calvinist position on this one? 'Cause that's pretty bad to kill some kids for making fun of your prophet...

governed by his providence, not initiated by him. The counsels and actions of men are originated by men.The malice of Satan and all the wicked are theirs, God directs it to whatever end he pleases.Again you treat terms like governs, excites, rules, as if they meant originates. He steers us, but we have the inclinations ourselves.He uses the inclinations of people as his instruments. The inclinations are already there in the created being.We conceive things in our minds, God directs them.You are the one saying God originates the thoughts, Calvin isn't. So far you haven't quoted one thing from Calivin that says that, it's all about God governing and directing what is already naturally there.Why are you having so much trouble understanding the meaning of these quotes?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.