Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?

Because our thoughts are full of sin and God can't sin.Calvin is completely scriptural and I may not have the best grasp of all his arguments but I do know that when somebody starts claiming anything he said supports sin in God they're off the track. If they think it's right there in his quotes they are misreading his quotes even if to them it looks open and shut, and I believe Dr. A. has been doing that all along. The idea that Calvin, who was more Biblically astute than most, wouldn't have noticed such implications in his writing is nuts, beyond nuts.If I ever get into studying it further I'll come back and try to do a better job. On the other hand I don't know that I did a bad job this time.

So, to summarize. Calvin can't have said the things that he actually said, repeatedly, explicitly, and vehemently, because in your opinion he is right about everything whereas in your opinion the things that he actually said are wrong. He did notice these "implications". He noticed it so much that they aren't even "implications". They're what he said. When I quote Calvin writing "The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence" --- when I quote him as saying this, I am not drawing this implication from his thought. He is. That's why he wrote it and I didn't. You may find this statement disgusting, but it isn't something that I have foisted on Calvin. It's what Calvin thought. Which is why he wrote it. And I didn't. You're claiming that Calvin wasn't a Calvinist. Yeah, that's a bad job.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Ah, so that's where you put the limit on God's potency. Calvin said what he wrote. If you don't accept it, then don't.But to call yourself a Calvanist and then deny that he says what he wrote only makes you look foolish. This whole "you're reading him wrong" schtick is a big stinking pile of bullshit.You are not the grand arbitor of Calvin's words and there's really nothing binding you to accepting his ideas.If it turns out that you reject Calvinism, then you should be willing to accept that. Why aren't you? What's the big deal?

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* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.

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According to Calvin, God does cause us to sin.The only escape that you have is to say that causing us to sin is not a sin, itself.

Good grief I would have thought this much would be clear by now. The arguments have over and over tried to prove that Calvin supported a view of God that scripture contradicts and that is simply absolutely impossible. Calvin is taught in seminaries and churches as the most biblical of theologians, there is nothing anybody here could say that would prove otherwise. You are misreading him in some sense. Your claim that his quotes themselves say this is simply wrong. Thousands of knowledgeable theologians and preachers know what he said and if he'd said any such thing they wouldn't be Calvinists themselves. The amazing arrogance of a bunch of anti-Christians to tell Christians what a great theologian *really* meant is stupefying. I've answered this so many times I'm certain you all can't read.DIRECTS men's counsels, EXCITES their wills, REGULATES their efforts as he pleases but nothing in this quote says he originates the counsels or their wills or their efforts themselves, He just MOVES them as He pleases. The counsels, the contents of their wills and their efforts are already there.If Calvin says anywhere that God actually determines the content of our thoughts this has not been shown by anyone. The quotes all describe Him directing what is already there. And I've said this so many times my fingers are going numb writing it. First, again, none of the quotes imply that God originates the sinful thoughts.But if any of it is supposed to be understood as His determining the content of our thoughts, which you all claim but is not actually evidenced by your quotes, then I'd have to see how Calvin understands that God could do that and not sin Himself, which of course he'd have to argue because he's biblical and scripture says God can't sin.The cavalier way you all think Calvin could support sin in God Himself when he's known as the most Biblical of theologians is a monumental error.You are committing a version of Vulgar Calvinism.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The arguments have over and over proved that Calvin supported a view of God that you think that scripture contradicts and that you think is simply absolutely impossible.Well then, Calvin was a Calvinist and you are not.But you seem to have come up with another, crazier, solution --- that since Calvin is right, and you disagree with Calvinism, therefore Calvin was not a Calvinist.

Calvinism cannot say that God sins. Period. You are nuts to try to make that case.

* "Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God."* "God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases." But of course Calvin does argue that. I don't say that he does it very well, but that's exactly what Calvin does. He argues that whereas God plans out all my sinful thoughts, and I am helpless to resist this, nonetheless all the sin should be imputed to me while God remains holy and sinless. This is Calvinism. Ah, sheesh, there are thousands of knowledgeable theologians and preachers who think Calvin was a blasphemous asshole. So if you apply your own reasoning ...Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

More of the same idiocy.

I haven't seen anyone make that argument. Nobody is saying this stuff contradicts scripture. YOU are the one saying it contradicts scripture. But that's because you're not a True Calvinist, you place limits on God's potency, e.g. He cannot xxx. That's retarded. Exciting a man's will is causing him to desire.When God excites your will he is making you want something. He is the source.Which should be obvious, because He is the source of EVERYTHING.You're just trying to discount the ramifications of what Calvin says because you can't bring yourself to accept that God is the cause of sin.But a True Calvinist does accept that God is the cause of sin, as that is what Calvin, himself, wrote.He even goes so far as to say that God set up The Fall. Sure it does: God directs men's counsel.Your counsel is your policy of behavior. If God is directing it then He is choosing your behavior for you. That is Calvinism. That's exactly what Calvinism is.

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Calvin's doctrine of providence is straightforward. "All events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God." Therefore, nothing happens but what [God] has knowingly and willingly decreed.

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and

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According to Calvin, the idea that man has free will and is able to make choices independently of what God has already determined is based on our limited understanding of God's perfection and the idea that God's purposes can be circumvented. In this mode of thought, providence is related to predestination. This concept remains prominent among many Protestant denominations that identify with Calvinism, the Reformed churches.

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According to Calvin, you can't do anything at all, even think, that hasn't been pre-determined by God that you will do it, or think it.I'm surprised that you are this ignorant of Calvinism. I'm surprised that me, as a Catholic, has a better understanding of Calvinism than you do.But then, I'm not limiting myself by accepting and believing what Calvin said so I don't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance that you do. As I said: God causing us to sin is not a sin, itself.Its a piece of cake hand-wave. No problem.God causing us to sin can't be sin because God doesn't sin (notice I didn't say can't). Sin is the separation from God, and God doesn't separate Him from Himself. But he does predetermine that you will be separated from Him before you are even born, according to Calvin.He says that God already picked and chose every thought and action that you will ever take in your life. That is Calvinism. How do you not know this? Who except for you is saying that this all means that God is sinning?Aren't you the only one? No, you are just not a True Calvinist.

Nobody has said that Calvinism says that God sins. Quite the opposite actually.What Calvin does say is that God causes you to sin.You are saying that God causing you to sin is a sin itself.And in saying that you are rejecting Calvinism.Because Calvin maintains that God remains sinless despite causing all of us to sin.

And here I was thinking you were wrong. But when you presented this well-reasoned rebuttal, with your many quotations from the writings of Calvin ...... oh, wait, that was me.

Calvin can say what Calvin says, which I have quoted. If you deduce from Calvin's words that God sins, then you are free to reject Calvinism, to reject your own reasoning, or to say that God sins. But I don't see any other options.

YOU deduce from Calvin's words that God sins because you believe he's saying God directly ordained sinful inclinations, and I keep answering you that that's not how I read your quotes, which are about how God directs and shapes the inclinations that are already there. That's how I read it.But maybe some time I'll read up on whatever is said on this subject by people who know something.

You could start with reading Calvin, I hear that he's quite the expert on Calvin. Funny coincidence, eh?* "By his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined."* "God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections."* "God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases."* "These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence."* "The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence."Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

That's a fantastic idea, Faith.