|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Is it moral for God to punish us? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 377 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
It is analogous to a painter slashing his own painting. We would think a painter quite insane if he did such a thing so why do you not think God insane for punishing us for being exactly what he created us to be? All of the great artists are a little insane. They see things that the rest of us do not. Maybe a better analogy would be a AI machine that was created by an engineer. Say that he wants to pressure the machine into behaving a certain way and the best way to do that is to cause the machine some pain. So the engineer programs the machine to feel pain whenever it does some unacceptable thing. What is immoral about that?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Tanypteryx
Why did you reply on a God question that needed a judgement call if you were not going to make one? Never mind. RegardsDL
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
NoNukes
1. God's punishment is after death in hell and from there, there is only death, so shaping a behavior before killing the cured is rather a useless exercise. 2. You do not realize that man cannot help do what you call bad choices. Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or it’s all man’s fault. That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy." But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem. If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong. Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." RegardsDL
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
ProtoTypical
A poor analogy. If the machine knows that it is doing an unacceptable thing that will bring it punishment, then it will not do it. Unless it has no choice of course and then that would be the programmers/God's fault and not the machines. The actions of people are motivated by pleasure seeking. Only those we think are not quite mentally well will do what they know will hurt them. S & M and such. Please read what I put in the post above on free will. RegardsDL
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
2. You do not realize that man cannot help do what you call bad choices. What is it that I call bad choices? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
The actions of people are motivated by pleasure seeking. Really? Do you believe this motivation describes your own behavior? Do you do everything that there is a motivation to do? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
NoNukes
Re your bad choices question. I am used to chatting with Christians on this and by bad choices, I was speaking of sin. We cannot help but sin and I applied that to what you called poor choices. ----------- To your other post on pleasure seeking. Yes, I do things that tend to please me somehow and not hurt me.No. I do not do all that I am motivated to do as I cannot afford it all. Is that not what you do or do you do things that you think will harm you. RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I am used to chatting with Christians on this and by bad choices, I was speaking of sin. So you cannot help but commit adultery or to steal your neighbors ox?
No. I do not do all that I am motivated to do as I cannot afford it all. I personally make choices on a daily basis. I don't do everything that I can afford to do, and I am capable of doing things that inconvenience me but help others. I think people are more complex than you give them credit for. In any event, the assumptions you make here are too simple and uninteresting. I leave you to argue with ringo and others. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
NoNukes writes:
It's a really nice ox.
So you cannot help but commit adultery or to steal your neighbors ox?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
NoNukes
I was looking at sin as a concept and in total and not individual ones as you have chosen to do. I think that to be the complex way but think as you like. BTW, all altruistic acts have self-serving aspect. Scratch a back in order to have the same done to you type of thing. RegardsDL
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Scratch a back in order to have the same done to you type of thing. That would not be altruism at all. Tell me what the 'scratch a back' reasoning is behind anonymous giving if you want to insist on this kind of tit for tat. People are more complex than you give them credit for here. That includes the fact that they are not stuck in some kind of nature beyond their ability to decide regardless of inherited predisposition. If you want to narrow your model down to discuss humans predestined and unavoidably and therefore unsuitable for punishment, let me suggest that under man's law we do punish people for the bad things they do. Is it moral that your parents disciplined you? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
NoNukes
True that reciprocity is not described the same way as altruism. I did not say it was. I said reciprocity was a component of altruism. You keep saying how complicated people are as an argument against what I said without showing the complication you are using to (refute). A neat trick but hardly a refutation. As to parents punishing or disciplining. They are here, God is not, so you are comparing apples to oranges. Parents are not absentee deadbeat dads. RegardsDL
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
True that reciprocity is not described the same way as altruism. I did not say it was. I said reciprocity was a component of altruism. Right, and I said that reciprocity is not a component of true altruism. I provided an example of altruism in which there was no reciprocity.
ou keep saying how complicated people are as an argument against what I said without showing the complication you are using That's a lie. I provided an example of the complications that your simple thread ignores. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Greatest I am writes: Not mine. At the moment my actions are motivated on having the most comfie life I can get till I die in around 40 years (hopefully) time.
The actions of people are motivated by pleasure seeking.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Pressie
?? Is "having the most comfie life" a pleasure, --- and is that not you pleasure seeking which is what I said motivates us? RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024