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Author | Topic: Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ringo writes: The position is that gravity can create a universe and the Law of Gravity describes how it does it. I'm going to have to correct what I said earlier. I found some of the surrounding context from Hawking's book The Grand Design, and here's an excerpt where he's explicitly saying that the universe exists because gravity exists:
quote: So when Hawking writes, "Because there is a law such as gravity...", he really *is* saying that gravity is responsible for creating the universe. As he says later on:
quote: Hawking appears to be implying precisely what Kbertsche said he was, that gravity existed before the universe, that it isn't just descriptive but an active player. I haven't actually found a complete copy of the book online, just lengthy portions at Google. I don't claim my interpretation is without error and would appreciate corrections and/or improvements. Edited by Admin, : Grammar.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I think you're missing - as kbertsche does - the distinction between a description and that it describes. The distinction between prescriptive and descriptive is to say that the law describes rather than controls. It has no real consequences for the way things actually work.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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quote: He is speaking of the quantum fluctuation where energy erupts into a universe. The energy needs to be balanced with an equal negative energy. Space is that negative energy. Since gravity is the geometry of space ... Without gravity the positive energy cannot be balanced and the quantum fluctuation can not occur. The Quantum Fluctuation produces both the energy necessary for creating a universe and the space in which it exists. From nothing. As brilliant as he may be, Hawking suffers from the same shortcomings in communication with the lay person as most other scientists. He knows what he is talking about. The science literate know what he is talking about. The less knowledgeable may misinterpret the meaning and the creationist will latch onto the literal juxtaposition of his words without any consideration of any underlying meaning. He is not saying that gravity existed before the universe or caused the universe to manifest. He, like the rest of us, does not know what might cause, if anything, a quantum fluctuation to occur. Someone with an agenda might hear a scientist talk about the Uncertainty Principle making a quantum fluctuation possible then arguing that scientists say QFT exists outside the universe. Hawking may not have given the extreme pedantic detail he could have, but he is innocent of being stupid. He is not saying that gravity alone caused the universe to come into being. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity? Edited by AZPaul3, : One more add + title
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
AZPaul3 writes: He is speaking of the quantum fluctuation where energy erupts into a universe. Ah - that was my original interpretation. But my post was a result of a search for longer excerpts from Hawking's book, some of which I quoted, and even though longer they still stressed only gravity. Does he make the quantum implications of gravity clear elsewhere in the book?
He is not saying that gravity existed before the universe or caused the universe to manifest. But in the portions I read that's exactly what he appears to be saying. Does he make his true position clear somewhere in the book? Or is Hawking writing books that only communicate the right impression to people who already know what he's talking about? This isn't to say that he should communicate a scientist's understanding to laypeople, but he shouldn't communicate impressions to people that when they come to website's like this and repeat what Hawking said are told that that's *not* what Hawking meant when it *is* precisely what he said. Apologies for not sifting through more of Google's partial copy of The Grand Design. Lack of time, plus it's just painful trying to read books in fractured form.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
From memory I thought it was quite clear, but that may just be me. Right now I do not have chapter and verse to relay as my copy is out with a friend. One reads so many of these things they all meld together absent to actual text. If I recall correctly they did go into some detail about quantum theory and, specifically, the uncertainty principle as the justification for the existence of quantum fluctuations and virtual particle pairs and etc., like that. The same discussion as Greene, Randall and Krauss in their various books.
This isn't to say that he should communicate a scientist's understanding to laypeople, but he shouldn't communicate impressions to people that when they come to website's like this and repeat what Hawking said are told that that's *not* what Hawking meant when it *is* precisely what he said. Thus the scientists' communication problems. If one lays a foundation here and neglects to repeat himself 6 pages or 6 chapters later from where a quote is taken, who's fault is the miscommunication? Everyone's.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So when Hawking writes, "Because there is a law such as gravity...", he really *is* saying that gravity is responsible for creating the universe. As he says later on: I don't read the statements as necessarily saying gravity created the universe. I read them as saying that gravity was required for creating the universe. Sorta like saying clay is required for creating a sculpture. As I understand what has been discussed here, gravity plays the role of providing negative energy so that the sum total of the energy of the universe might be zero. It could still be the case that the cause of the quantum fluctuation that created the universe has a natural cause separate completely separate and unrelated to gravity. Short summary: gravity is an enabler but the cause might be nothing, or some other natural phenomena, or even possibly God did it without having to violate conservation of energy. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes: Look, you're not making a point that's difficult to understand. It just resolves to 'God did it.' Fine, we all get that. But It's been pointed out several times by several people that that just pushes the argument back a stage. So who or what caused God to exist? It's hardly an original thought, why are you not answering it? I answered this question in my first post. I said:
quote: I have answered this question in just about every post I have posted in this thread. Every post that I have said Supernatural power I have answered the question of where the power came from that produced the energy and mass. The problem is that no one is able to understand what a supernatural power is. BTW I have asked that question several times. A supernatural power is not a natural power.A supernatural power is not limited by nature or any force of any kind. The only limitations a supernatural power would have would be the restrictions imposed by that supernatural power. A natural power would require a creation. A supernatural power would not require a creation as that supernatural power would have all power. I hope that is plain enough for everyone to understand. I know it will not be accepted by most natural minds on this site, as those minds do not believe in anything that is supernatural. Except. Branes that can pop into existence in non existence and create the universe we live in. Or an instanton which requires a vacuum (that would not exist in non existence) to pop into existence and create a universe like we live in. For either of those to accomplish what is said they may have accomplished they would have to be a supernatural power. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6
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Hi Admin,
Admn writes: The question was, "Why does God exist rather than nothing at all?" Your answer is equivalent to, "A supernatural power exists because we exist," just as Straggler stated. I did not make the statement Straggler stated, and you quoted. I stated:
ICANT writes: Message 198 I thought I was referring to a supernatural power that supplied the energy and mass that was used to create our universe.That supernatural power would not be natural as it would have to exist outside of the universe. I do call that supernatural power God. You can call it anything you want. It makes no difference what we call it. It had to exist to supply the energy and mass needed to create our universe. If that supernatural power did not exist we would not exist.
Straggler said:
Straggler writes:
Message 200 If God does exist and he is pondering the question "Why do I exist rather than nothing" I doubt he will take much solace in your answer that he exists because we do. My exact words:"If that supernatural power did not exist we would not exist." Straggler's exact words: "I doubt he will take much solace in your answer that he exists because we do." Straggler stated my words in reverse order.I said we exist because that supernatural power exists. Straggler said "He exist because we do". That is exactly what he believes. Because he believes mankind has created God in his imagination. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: Every post that I have said Supernatural power I have answered the question of where the power came from that produced the energy and mass. And what, created the supernatural power? Or have you simply invoked the causeless cause?
The problem is that no one is able to understand what a supernatural power is. No kidding!
BTW I have asked that question several times. What question?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
I think Hawking's wording is pretty clear that gravity is the cause. But for argument's sake, let's assume your interpretation is correct. It seems to me that there is still a glaring problem. Admin writes:
I don't read the statements as necessarily saying gravity created the universe. I read them as saying that gravity was required for creating the universe. Sorta like saying clay is required for creating a sculpture. So when Hawking writes, "Because there is a law such as gravity...", he really *is* saying that gravity is responsible for creating the universe. As he says later on: As I understand what has been discussed here, gravity plays the role of providing negative energy so that the sum total of the energy of the universe might be zero. It could still be the case that the cause of the quantum fluctuation that created the universe has a natural cause separate completely separate and unrelated to gravity. Short summary: gravity is an enabler but the cause might be nothing, or some other natural phenomena, or even possibly God did it without having to violate conservation of energy. As I understand it, there were no forces or force carriers (including gravity and gravitons) until a split second after the Big Bang. So how could gravity be an "enabler" of the Big Bang? "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ICANT writes: I did not make the statement Straggler stated, and you quoted. I didn't say you did. I said that your answer is equivalent to it. You said:
It had to exist to supply the energy and mass needed to create our universe. If that supernatural power did not exist we would not exist. All one has to do is follow the very simple logic:
We wouldn't exist if a supernatural power didn't exist. We exist, therefore a supernatural power must exist, otherwise we wouldn't exist. If you're having trouble following the logic, let me illustrate the same logic but with different objects:
This watch wouldn't exist if a watchmaker didn't exist. This watch exists, therefore a watchmaker must exist, otherwise the watch wouldn't exist. The logic is *extremely* familiar and *very* old, usually attributed to William Paley over a couple hundred years ago. The original question to you was, "Why does God exist rather than nothing at all?" You seem to have provided an answer in Message 277:
ICANT in Message 277 writes: A natural power would require a creation. A supernatural power would not require a creation as that supernatural power would have all power. That seems pretty clear to me. You don't seem to be claiming to have physical evidence supporting this belief, so discussion should focus on the theological evidence behind it.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Admin,
Admin writes: We wouldn't exist if a supernatural power didn't exist. We exist, therefore a supernatural power must exist, otherwise we wouldn't exist. Straggler's words: "He exist because we do". Straggler is saying if we did not exist the Supernatural power would not exist. The problem with that is that the supernatural power would exist whether we existed or not. We just would not be here to know anything about it. Your watch makers only makes watches. The supernatural power created the entire universe. Not just mankind, which makes the comparison no comparison at all.
Admin writes: That seems pretty clear to me. You don't seem to be claiming to have physical evidence supporting this belief, so discussion should focus on the theological evidence behind it. There is just as much physical evidence supporting the supernatural power as there is for two branes bumping together in non existence and starting the universe to exist. Or and instanton popping into existence in non existence and creating the universe."John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
There is just as much physical evidence supporting the supernatural power as there is for two branes bumping together in non existence and starting the universe to exist. Or and instanton popping into existence in non existence and creating the universe. Really ? Break out the math then - show us your evidence for a supernatural power.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
vimesey writes: Really ? Break out the math then - show us your evidence for a supernatural power. He *does* say physical evidence.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes: And what, created the supernatural power? Or have you simply invoked the causeless cause?
The problem is that no one is able to understand what a supernatural power is. No kidding! No kidding.
quote:Supernatural Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster For two branes to bump together and cause the universe to begin to exist out of non existence would be a supernatural event. You can use the circular reasoning that the branes existed in the universe and banged together and caused the universe to begin to exist. But for that to happen the universe had to already exist. For the Hartley/Hawking instanton to pop into existence in non existence and create our present universe would be a supernatural event. You could make the same circular reasoning argument about the instanton popping into existence inside the universe and creating the universe. But for that to happen the universe had to already exist. The same goes for the God particle, gravitons/gravity or any other such hypothesis. I think all of these would be in the realm of philosophy.
quote:Google Tangle writes: BTW I have asked that question several times. What question?
In Message 244 I asked Straggler: quote: This was not the first time I had asked this question just the latest. So far there has been nothing but a supernatural power proposed as the cause of the beginning to exist of the universe. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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