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Author Topic:   This belief thing
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(2)
Message 70 of 162 (783276)
05-04-2016 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
04-26-2016 12:13 AM


Tangle writes:
This is just a topic to muse on and it's obviously not a unique thought that each civilisation has made up its own belief systems and in the absence of real understanding, created its own ways of dealing with life here being 'short and brutish'.
But when you see all this first hand one after another in quick succession - all the bell ringing, incense burning, joss stick lighting, bowing, praying, fasting, food fetishes and dietary retrictions - you have to come to the conclusion that we just made it all up and people will believe just about anything at all if it's taught them young enough and the promises that the belief systems give them are attractive enough - and/or the penalties for disbelief unattractive enough.
There's no consistency and there's no rhyme or reason to it. If there is a God he's having a laugh.
I disagree with the notion that there is no consistency. They are consistent in the belief that there is more to our lives than the idea that we are simply the result of the fortuitous , endless and mindless combinations of base elements and evolutionary processes. They all conclude that there is ultimate purpose and meaning to life. They all contend that there is ultimately a right code of conduct that we should adhere to.
I would agree that religions are man made but that does mean that within all of this there isn't an intelligence that reaches out to us with the idea that there really is meaning and purpose to our lives. That idea had to come form somewhere and as I have suggested in other conversations we have had I suggest that it is more logical to assume that this idea is more likely to come from an external intelligence than it is to come from a collection of mindless particles.
I agree that the conclusions about the nature of this intelligence and of how it should affect our lives vary considerably. In most cases it seem to be more about influencing the various images for the various gods in order to fulfil our own selfish desires. I'm a Christian and I see the same thing in my own religion where people have turned it into simply the idea that by professing the correct doctrine you get to live forever. ISIL has twisted Islam into a belief that it gives them the power of life and death over others.
However, as far as I am aware, all of the major religions have the common thread within in them that it isn't all about me. The golden rule can be found in all of them, which is another consistency.
I also think that people look at the world and ar life itself and come to the conclusion that there is a point to all of this. As Paul writes in one of his letters we are able to learn about the nature of this intelligence and for his call on our lives by studying the nature of our existence. As an atheist you have concluded that things work better when we live co-cooperatively and attributed it to natural evolutionary processes. I suggest that it is the ongoing revelation of this creative intelligence in our lives. I contend that is the far more likely conclusion.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2016 12:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2016 3:47 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 72 of 162 (783419)
05-05-2016 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
05-05-2016 3:47 AM


Tangle writes:
This isn't of course correct.
There are multiple, incompatible belief systems alive in the world today. (And many more long gone.) Some, but not all of these systems involve gods - Christianity, Islam, Judeism, Hinduism etc. Others involve ancestor worship and millions think that the numbers 3,7& 8 have magic propertiess - though each one in different countries. Buddists reject the idea of deity entirely. The Chinese build skyscrapers in particular shapes and positions to ward off bad influences. And so on and so forth. Pretty much anything you can imagine about imaginary beliefs has been imagined and worshipped/honoured/practiced.
Yes, there is ambiguity, but my point was that all religions conclude that there is more to life than what is obvious. Buddhists believe in reincarnation etc. Atheism's point is that we live and die as individuals and that ultimately all life will end one way or another and that ultimately there is no over-arching purpose to our existence.
Tangle writes:
The notion of 'do as you would be done by' is NOT a religiously derived idea, it's common to humanity regardless of religion, belief system or none. It's a necessary part of human life without which we wouldn't exist. It was here long before our current set of imaginary beliefs, it was there in the caves when we were dancing around the fire. It has been appropriated by some religions because it's a necessary way of getting along. You may believe that that set of cooperative mechanisms was put directly into people (and ants, bees, pack animals etc etc) by a god, or by an evolutionary process set in place by a god, but you CAN'T move from that to say that our religions are derived from god. The evidence is entirely that we make them up.
I'm claiming that the diversity and incompatibility of humanity's belief systems clearly demonstrates that they have been invented by us, not revealed to us by a common god. So much is surely obvious?
But that is simply your belief. If, as I believe, we have been given the ability to choose between doing the selfish thing and the unselfish thing we have to do that with the idea that we make the unselfish choice knowing that there is probably no ultimate pay-off for doing so. If we had absolute knowledge about some form of deity then we could no longer freely make that choice.
There are many cases where following the golden rule does benefit the one who follows it but there are also many cases where there is no chance of benefit for either the individual or for others in his/her gene pool.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2016 3:47 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 05-05-2016 11:10 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2016 3:17 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 75 of 162 (783578)
05-06-2016 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
05-05-2016 3:17 PM


Tangle writes:
Ambiguity?? The beliefs are incompatible. Most of them claim that only their belief is true.
I suggest that most religions do have some beliefs in common, such as the golden rule. As I said earlier all major religions agree that there is more to our lives than what is obvious through normal observation whether it be a particular revelation about one deity or another or re-incarnation.
Tangle writes:
We must at least agree that the vast majority of religions must be invented - presumably in your case all but one of them?
Nearly all religions are an attempt to understand the nature of their deity or deities and how we should respond. I'm theistic and as part of that I believe that the still small voice of God reaches out to all mankind but not in a way that gives us certainty. I explained the reason for that ambiguity earlier.
I have no doubt that much of what I believe is probably wrong. (The problem is I don't know which part of what I believe that is. ) However, I take on faith and trust that God is good and wants humans to reflect His nature into the world by living the life described in my signature.
Tangle writes:
It most certainly isn't. People were living in communities before the invention of your religion - are you doubting that?
God has been around a lot longer that 2000 years. Whar's your point?
Tangle writes:
We do both the selfish and the unselfish thing for lots of complicated reasons to do with our upbringing, emotional state, genes, time of month, hormone levels, sex, relationships, etc etc etc. To imagine that we do the selfless act for Jesus or Allah or whatever god is in vogue at the time is just plain daft.
It isn't about doing things. It's about having hearts that allow us to love unselfishly. Many of us have hearts that have been damaged by abuse, lack of love and all the things you mention. However, it is about wanting to do the unselfish thing even though the temptation to do make the selfish choice often wins out. Hopefully over our lives we evolve in such a way that we make more unselfish choices than not.
Tangle writes:
Again, you can imagine that 'god did it' but even if he provided the emotional states necessary for us to behave ourselves by choice, it does not even begin to explain the predominance of contradictory religions. The evidence is that they are all made up - except, you would say, one.
IMHO all religions including my own are in one sense or another made up. For example when you read Paul it is clear that he is working at living and understanding what the resurrection of Jesus meant to the world, which we still do to this day. As I said, all theistic religions are an attempt to understand the nature of their deity and how we should respond. Sometimes we get it right and some times not so much.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2016 3:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 3:54 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 97 of 162 (783808)
05-08-2016 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
05-07-2016 8:39 AM


jar writes:
He's only the same god to some extent? He either is or he ain't Faith. He can't be only a bit the same god.
I don't agree with that jar. Different people hold different views on the nature and their expectations of politicians for example but they are still the same people.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 8:39 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 05-08-2016 9:57 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2016 4:51 AM GDR has not replied

  
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