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Author | Topic: PC Gone Too Far | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Bluegenes writes:
Anybody who has "slave-like experiences" is effectively a slave.
You described a slave having a traumatic experience. Non slaves could have similar experiences, but corpses can't. bluegenes writes:
No such evidence has been presented here. And no such evidence is possible unless you can rewind history and play it again with different parameters. (Now that would be a great ride at your Historyland.)
You can readily observe that slavery did not have the same or similar effects on the African American population that genocide would have had. bluegenes writes:
You're conflating death with "non-existence", which is just your personal philosophical slant. The people involved, both slave and "non slave", most likely believed in life after death, so "non-existence" has no relevance. Existing as a slave or anything else isn't similar to not existing at all. We are not talking about what death actually "is" at all. We can only talk about how living people perceive death. I maintain that living people perceive death and slavery as very similar.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
On the contrary, we don't seem to be learning even those simple lessons. Here in Canada we're only just beginning to learn that our paternalistic treatment of aboriginal treatment was a form of genocide. In the US you haven't learned yet what the long-term costs of slavery and/or segregation and/or racism really are. I hope the lessons of history are a bit more profound than "don't keep slaves" and "don't gas Jews", and I think we don't need history to tell us these lessons, anyway. Don't look for complex lessons before you learn the simple ones.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
. I maintain that living people perceive death and slavery as very similar. Did you mean to distinguish that statement a little Ringo ? I perceive death as an inevitable and natural process that often brings a welcome end to a life of increasing pain and suffering due to old age and disease. I'm not exactly looking forward to death, but I don't hope it will never happen. On the other hand, slavery is not inevitable, is far from natural, and I fervently hope never to suffer from it (as well as hoping that we can eradicate its existence).Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
vimesey writes:
I perceive death as an end to the good things in life: watching children and grandchildren grow up, walking in the park, having a beer if I feel like it, etc. I perceive death as an inevitable and natural process that often brings a welcome end to a life of increasing pain and suffering due to old age and disease. I perceive slavery as the lack of those same good things: not being able to watch my children grow up because they've been sold, never knowing if I have grandchildren at all, not being able to move an inch without Massah's permission or do anything just because I feel like doing it. I bet you do too. I think those perceptions are pretty universal. You have to go through some pretty wild contortions to miss the similarity.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Yes, it's an end to the good things, but an end to the bad things too. I've seen relatives suffer through dreadful pain and heartache before they passed away, and death isn't an unwelcome end to that.
And it's not an end we're around to regret either. It's natural, a part of human existence and is universal. These are features I don't see when I consider slavery.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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vimesey writes:
Which is why I said SIMILAR, not f**king IDENTICAL. These are features I don't see when I consider slavery. We have physician-assisted death legislation pending in Canada for cases such as you describe. Let me know when people start clamouring for physician-assisted slavery.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Ok, touched a nerve there, which was not my intention. My apologies.
I'm not invested enough in the issue to get anyone het up over this, so I'll not come back on it.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I perceive slavery as the lack of those same good things: not being able to watch my children grow up because they've been sold, never knowing if I have grandchildren at all, not being able to move an inch without Massah's permission or do anything just because I feel like doing it. You should visit Monticello...
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Evil is as evil does. Do evil and you're evil. And as I keep saying, history itself has no value unless we judge it by our own subjective standards. We can only improve our own behaviour by avoiding what we perceive as bad behaviour in the past. So can you admit that you, yourself, are evil? And that everybody today is evil? You're certainly doing things today that future generations will consider evil. Evil is as evil does, you're doing evil things today, therefore you are evil. And so is everybody else. When everyone is evil, it really looses its utility.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2508 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: You described a slave having a traumatic experience. Non slaves could have similar experiences, but corpses can't. Anybody who has "slave-like experiences" is effectively a slave. Having a child forcibly removed (your example) isn't something slaves necessarily experience, and can certainly happen to non-slaves.
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: You can readily observe that slavery did not have the same or similar effects on the African American population that genocide would have had. No such evidence has been presented here. And no such evidence is possible unless you can rewind history and play it again with different parameters. (Now that would be a great ride at your Historyland.) I pointed out that:
bluegenes writes: At the time of the civil war, slaves in the United States far outnumbered the sum of those transported into the region from Africa between 1620 and 1825. The ratio may have been about 10:1. You don't appear to have grasped the point, but genocide is characterised by a marked reduction in the population of the group concerned, not by a marked increase. Slavery is certainly not similar to genocide.
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: Existing as a slave or anything else isn't similar to not existing at all. You're conflating death with "non-existence", which is just your personal philosophical slant. The people involved, both slave and "non slave", most likely believed in life after death, so "non-existence" has no relevance. It was you who claimed that slavery was similar to genocide. Don't blame it on others who aren't known to have made the claim.
ringo writes: We are not talking about what death actually "is" at all. We can only talk about how living people perceive death. I maintain that living people perceive death and slavery as very similar. You're wriggling around all over the place. If you mean by "living people" at least one (yourself) then I'll take your word for it. If you mean people living in slave systems in general, or in the American one in particular, then you seem to be implying that the "people involved" would perceive slavery as similar to existence in an afterlife. That's very different from claiming that slavery is similar to genocide. It's also wrong. If you read accounts of slavery by people who were actually slaves, there's no evidence for that at all. In fact, most of the American slaves certainly were religious, and the optimists among them would be looking forward to an afterlife that was radically different from the state of slavery. You've messed up that attempt to justify your "slavery is similar to genocide" line big time. Why not just admit that you were wrong?
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
NoNukes writes: So no, I was not confused. Yes, you were confused. Here it is again, there's no ambiguity, you thought the passage you quoted was saying that Lincoln compared Davis to "the radicals":
NoNukes in Message 369 writes: quote: Surely Lincoln did not intend this comparison to Davis to be a complement. I specifically asked you to back up that argument. I already backed up my argument, time to back up yours, and not with diversions into how plans for reconstruction revealed Lincoln's true thinking. Lincoln spoke clearly and plainly and more than once on human character. I cited Lincoln because his views align with my own and he said it better. I thought the silliness of casting accusations of evil at entire cultures would quickly become self-evident, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and now it's gotten to the point were even honest misreadings are denied. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
ringo writes: Don't look for complex lessons before you learn the simple ones. Not "complex" but profound. The lessons of history are not a bunch of simple "Don't do this's" and "Don't do that's" and "Don't be evil". They're embedded in human character and conduct, virtue and vice. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I cited Lincoln becuse his views align with my own and he said it better. I thought the silliness of casting accusations of evil at entire cultures would quickly become self-evident, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and now it's gotten to the point were even honest misreadings are denied. After being challenged on that point a couple of times, it ought to be obvious that your point is not self evident, and requires some support. Citing Lincoln simply resulted in the raising of additional arguments, which you cannot be bothered to address. I cited references that supports a position that Lincoln's policy of non-judgment and leniency lead to attempts to reinstall slavery and to continue to treat their former slaves as much like slaves as the thirteenth amendment would allow. Eventually it became required to force a couple of more constitutional amendments down the South's throat and to put federal troops in each of the Southern states just to protect the new citizens. I also cited the politics of the time in an attempt to show what Lincoln's motivation of the time might have been. All points, provided with support, which you continue to deny without any argument. All you've done here is cite Lincoln and then leave rebuttals unanswered.
Surely Lincoln did not intend this comparison to Davis to be a complement Ah, yes that was a mis statement on my part. However, that particular note was not the main thrust of my argument, was it? As I indicated, the policy of leniency was begun by Lincoln, and continued through the Johnson administration, and a cited a couple of passages linking the two administrations. But you are correct, I did attribute a Johnson remark to Lincoln. Does that address the rest of my argument. No.
The Civil War was over slavery, but the fundamental causes related to the inability of the North and South to reach agreement about slavery. Why was that? Certainly not because the South was evil. That is not anyone's argument. Your claim, which you seem here to be backing away from slightly, was that slavery was a distraction from an understanding of the causes of the civil war. Wrong. Slavery is just fine for divining the causes and outlining the fundamental disagreements. What slavery does not work so well for is justifying a benign view of the South or of its most fervent champions of slavery and secession.
Percy writes: Though slavery figures prominently in the story it is primarily a distraction when divining the fundamental causes of the Civil War. No, slavery is not a distraction from divining the fundamental cause of the Civil War. The refusal to give up slavery was the fundamental reason that areas of disagreement became intractable. And the failure to resolved those problems led directly to the civil war. Yeah, I understand that the cotton had to be picked, the houses needed cleaning, the children needed nannies, and the black woman needed raping, and that attempted runaways and disobedient men required beating/maiming to prevent recalcitrance, and that it was vital that the children be enslaved and separated from their families in order to protect the Southern industry and genteel way of life. But in my mind, none of those 'requirements' justify or excuse what was done to folks by the slavery. So yeah, morally bankrupt, evil, or despicable seems to apply just fine. Not saying being evil was the cause, but the South's running an economy relying on enslaving and mistreating folks certainly was the cause, and plenty of folks of that era, in both the North and the South recognized that fact. Parsing out that difference does not change what I think of Davis in any way. And my opinion is completely justified objectively and factually. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Cat Sci writes:
That conveys less than a bare link. What's your point?
You should visit Monticello...
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Cat's Eye writes:
You're certainly doing things today that future generations will consider evil. or "could consider evil". Reading lately that stands of trees communicate through their interconnected root structures, one might allow for the possibility of sentience. In fact I have read stories in Analog magazine of sentient trees. ====> Therefore cutting down trees could be evil. Preposterous, some might say??? I think this gets at what Percy is arguing - the splitting of objective history from subjective history...? Yes, slavery is evil, but in order to understand how the Confederacy came into being, the evilness is a subjective distraction. Ivory huntingDolphin killing Chimpanzee experiments and on and on.... The other direction is also pertinent. The LGBTQ movement is trying to get today's culture to remove the historical "evilness". So what used to be evil is no longer so.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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