Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?

TaborBlog – Page 7 – Religion Matters from the Bible to the Modern WorldWow!This is one of the finest historians to follow on the early Church.He knows the importance of James. (James the brother of Jesus).He makes honest efforts.Ironically,when I put "James vegetarian" into a search engine, James Cameron came up. Ironic because he makes an honest effort to learn about the early church (including archaeological discoveries on James the Just). That wasn't what came up in the search engine hit on him. His vegetarianism was the issue.I wish people would spend more time listening to honest searchers of truth as opposed to dishonest folks like Darrell Bock and Paul Maier jr.

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The "New Age of peace and no killing" has nothing to do with vegetarianism. It's only about killing people.

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The Zoroastrians have texts that parallel Revelation 20.They say that to get to the 3000 year Judgment Day, people have to first stop eating meat. Ironic because that religion allows meat to be eaten.Hebrews 10 to 11 talk about the ending of the sacrifice after the death of Jesus.Ebionite texts are a valuable witness on this as are the Elkesaites.Romans 14 to 15:1 and 1 Corinthians 8:10-13 does seem to have commands that lead to vegetarianism.James seems to have been a strict vegetarian.I think the bulk of the evidence goes against your sentence.

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Vegetarians eat stuff that got killed. Sorry but that's a fact and the topic of vegetarianism in this thread is just another total irrelevancy per usual.

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The Temple, Passover, and sacrifices aren't important then?Everything other than "j-a-r" is irrelevant it seems.

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If you want to discuss vegetarianism, start a thread. Frankly, I don't think we need to go past Genesis 4 but feel free to knock yourself out - in the appropriate thread.

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How to respond to this?

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O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold

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Are but a cheat contrived by men of old,

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Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust

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And died in basenessand their law is dust.

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Al-Ma'arri

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Genesis 9 is when there was the allowance for food btw. And the animal sacrifices were first mentioned in chapter 12 and the Abrahamic Covenant which was based on nationalism and racial distinctions which were then delineated in Genesis 17 with circumcision as the feature.See Acts 10-15 for the ending of such. It is related to the topic btw. Sorry you don't see that.Now, to get a little off topic.I found out about Al-Ma'arra while searching the web btw.

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End-Timers: Three Thousand Years of Waiting for Judgment Day: Three Thousand ...
By Martin Ballard

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p.58
His sayings still find a place in humanist collections.
"They all err -
Moslems, Christians, Jews and Magians (Zoroastrians)
...One man intelligent without religion
and one religious without intellect."

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End-Timers: Three Thousand Years of Waiting for Judgment Day: Three Thousand ... - Martin Ballard - Google Books

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Interesting as he comments on a ton of issues. (I changed the format of the book quote, but kept text the same)Error 404 - Not FoundBut this part (not the rest) is off topic.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Sacrifices are an issue.

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Matthew 9
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

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Matthew 12
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

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Matthew 2:23 says,"And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."There was a 1st century Gospel of Matthew by a group of this name. It seems to be the same one used by the Ebionites. They were vegetarians. They considered the end of sacrifices to men the end of killing animals for any reason.

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This Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of mostly Jewish followers of John the Baptizer and later Jesus, who were concentrated in Palestine and surrounding regions and led by James the Just (the oldest brother of Jesus), and flourished between the years 30-80 C.E.
Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus – TaborBlog

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James was a vegetarian ALREADY IN 62 A.D.according to all the evidence, and the Ebionites said that the end of sacrifices were the end of the killing. They were already vegetarians because James died 62 A.D. according to Josephus. Then the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.It is on topic.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This issue is important.We need evidence that this group existed in the first century so we can see how old the traditions are (at the latest).
James Tabor says that the Nazareans are the same thing as the Ebionites.Bart Ehrman considers the 2 groups related but not quite the same.

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he New testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings (3rd edition),
by Bart Ehrman
p.197
The Gospel of the Nazareans. ....written in Aramaic... It may have been produced in Palestine near the end of the first century, that is, about the time of the gospel of John. The church fathers who refer to it sometimes claim that it was an Aramaic translation of the Gospel according to Matthew, minus the first two chapters

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There is a divided opinion as to whether the Gospel of the Ebionites is from a different group.There is very strong evidence that this group existed in the first century because there was an Elkesaite offshoot which existed in the 3rd year of a Roman Emperor that ruled from 98 to 117 A.D.

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The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions
John Bowker (ed.)
Oxford University Press; 1st edition (May 8, 1997)
p.311
Elkesaites. A Jewish Christian group which arose c. 100 CE in the country east of the Jordan, having affinities with the *Ebionites

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The Elkesaite group existed in Mesopotamia (Mani was born in 216 A.D. in Mesopotamia and his parents were members of this group). All these groups (Ebionites, Narareans, Elkesaites , Manicheans) were vegetarian as were Matthew and James according to 2nd century sources.The critics who question that Elkesaites existed in exactly 100 A.D. have to nit-pick and dispute if the religion started in Palestine as the tradition claimed. They try to place the start more toward the end of Trajan's reign (i.e. about 116 or 117 A.D.) as opposed to the 3rd year. There is no reason to doubt the tradition. Elkesai would have picked an even earlier date than 100 A.D. if he was trying to make himself seem more venerable and making dates up. There isn't much room for the critics to move dates.The Elkesaite evidence locks in the fact that the Ebionites existed in the first century. Their views mirrored James' views. Their views matched the early descriptions of James being vegetarian.The followers of James (the Jerusalem church) fled to Pella in trans-Jordan during the troubles (with Romans, but James was killed by the Jews as they threw him from the Temple Mount in 62 A.D. according to Josephus) in the 60s. Elkesai had his "revelation" in 100 A.D. and started his new religion.It all fits with all the early traditions. Preserved by hostile Catholics and Greek Orthodox mainly.Very important when it comes to learning where Jesus was coming from in his views on there RELEVANT issues.

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If you look very closely you will perhaps notice that Temple, Passover, and sacrifices as well as vegetarianism all all different words and none of them related to the topic. Utter nonsense tossed to see what sticks is irrelevant.

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The Temple was a messianic issue. (Jesus said he was the Temple and Messiah)With the Temple comes the Passover. (Jesus said he was the Passover and Temple)With the Passover comes sacrifices. (Jesus said he was the Passover sacrifice)The vegetarian issues comes in because it is a mark of those closest to him and his 1st century followers (like James who he appointed leader of the church).Early first century that is.

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The issue really comes down to the fact that Christianity became a different religion than Judaism with different dogma, different customs, different practices and marketed to a different audience.

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Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish Messianic Prophecies because while Jesus was a Jew his followers created a new religion and became not Jews.

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The issue of sacrifices is complicated by the fact that the Essenes seem to have not disliked sacrifices. They seem to have performed sacrifices, so they can't be seen as the source for the anti-sacrificial views of Christians. Was it simply the Temple destruction? Paul already was against sacrifices and Jesus might have very well predicted the Temple destruction. He already considered himself the Passover sacrifice.Los Angeles Review of BooksJSTOR: Access Check (only first page can be read but it is instructive when read with above link)GoogleMy issue is to try to figure out exactly what Jesus taught (so we can trace the source of his teachings if there indeed were any). One very important clue might be to find out what James taught. Matthew (more the person, but the later Gospel bearing his name is an important issue) is important because of the prominent place he holds among Jewish Christians.The 1969 discovery (1975-82 publishing) of the COLOGNE MANI CODEX has become of monumentally important to me because of what it showed about the Elkesaites.Thank God the Encyclopedia Iranica has been offered for free online. How ignorant we would be without its precious modern scholarship.COLOGNE MANI CODEX — Encyclopaedia Iranica
It had a hyper-link to a separate article on Elchesai
ALCHASAI — Encyclopaedia IranicaThis was fundamentally important as it combined with existing sources on the Elkesaites to inform us a fair ways on them.The Kitāb al-Fihrist, "an Index of the books of all nations", was a 10th century work which talked about the vegetarianism of the Elchesai sect. The 4th century Epiphanius talked about how he taught that Jesus had multiple incarnations (important if one attempts to figure out the thought being responded to in first chapters of the polemical Gospel of John and the epistle of the Hebrews) and they were vegetarians. There were other sources.ForbiddenHere is an 1880 work on the Elkesaites (which should have received explosive attention because of the Manichean Codex discovered).

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Elkesaites a sect of Jewish Christians, which sprang up in the 2d century.
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Uhlhorn thinks that it [book of Elchesai]must have originated soon after the beginning of the second century, as it served as the basis of the doctrinal system of the Clementine Homilies, which were nearly completed about A.D. 150.
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he best account of the standard book of the Elkesaites is to be found in the Philosophoumena, and its main points are confirmed by the statements of Origen ....The Jewish element appears in the obligatory character of the law, and in circumcision. They rejected, however, sacrifices, and also several parts of the Old and New Testaments (of the latter, the Pauline epistles) ....hey taught a repeated, continuous incarnation of Christ, although his birth of a virgin seems to have been retained. The Lord's Supper was celebrated with bread and salt; the eating of meat was forbidden;
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The Clementine Homilies contain a further development of Elkesaite doctrines, with a stronger predominance of the Christian element. At the time of the emperor Constantius, Epiphanius found Elkesaites to the east of the Dead Sea, in Nabathaea, Ituraea, and Moabitis
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From the circumstance that in Epiphanius Elxai appears among nearly all parties of Jewish Christians, Uhlhorn infers that the Elkesaites were not so much a separate sect as a school among all sects of Jewish Christians.
Elkesaites - Biblical Cyclopedia

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A recent article.

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We may count the Pseudo-Clementine writings as a fourth source of information concerning the books of Elkesai.
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The book is evidently of Jewish origin
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The book ordered compliance with ordinances of the Jewish law, but condemned the rite of sacrifice, so involving the rejection of parts of O.T., and of the eating of flesh.
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The formula of baptism runs, In the name of the Most High God and of His Son, the Great King; but this Great King is not exclusively identified with Jesus of Nazareth, for He appeared in the world in successive incarnations, Adam being the first. The book agreed with the Clementines in complete rejection of St. Paul.

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Henry Wace: Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

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The book of Elchesai was produced 100 A.D. and that actually predates gnosticism which started to begin 100-150 A.D. and became more fully formed around 150 A.D. These views existed at the same time at New Testament books were being written. It seems to be a specific group that started in Trans-Jordan in 100 A.D.The important Gospel of Thomas states that Jesus made James the leader of the church.James had followers in Jerusalem. Josephus records the death of James in 62 A.D. in Jerusalem.

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Eusebius records that Clement of Alexandria wrote that Peter, James, and John chose James the Just as bishop of Jerusalem, but Eusebius also subjects James to the authority of all the apostles.[66]
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According to Eusebius, after the death of James the Jerusalem church fled to Pella, Jordan[72] to escape the siege of the future Emperor Titus, and then after the Bar Kokhba revolt the Jerusalem church was permitted to remain in the renamed Aelia Capitolina, but notably from this point onward all bishops of Jerusalem bear Greek rather than evidently Jewish names.[73][74]
Scholars such as: Pierre-Antoine Bernheim,[75] Robert Eisenman,[76][77] Will Durant, Michael Goulder,[78] Gerd Ludemann,[79] John Painter,[80] and James Tabor, argue for some form of continuity of the Jewish Jerusalem church into the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and that the Ebionites regarded James the Just as their leader.
Ebionites - Wikipedia

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These followers of James lived in the same place as the Elkesaites.Clement of Alexandria says Matthew was a vegetarian. Hegesippus said James was a vegetarian. (1 Corinthians 8:10-13 and Romans 14:1-15:1 strongly indicate that Paul was a vegetarian)The Elkesaites must have gotten their views from somebody.The views of the Elkesaites (their book existed 100 A.D.) would make sense if one recognizes their place in the context of the Gospel of John (chapters 1-3) and Hebrews (chapters 5 to 10).The vegetarianism of the Ebionites is documented and they consider the Temple destruction to have been the end of killing animals (which were already prohibited before the Temple destruction) when sacrifices ceased.Did Jesus originate these new ideas and commands?Or was there a pre-Jewish school that he got the idea's from.It has to be asked.But we need to understand his views first. His logic. Where he was going.Then where did it com from.

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Sheesh.
More nonsense and irrelevancy.

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What do you think of Jeremiah 7:22

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For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

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כִּ֠י לֹֽא־דִבַּ֤רְתִּי אֶת־אֲבֹֽותֵיכֶם֙ וְלֹ֣א צִוִּיתִ֔ים בְּיֹ֛ום [הֹוצִיא כ] (הֹוצִיאִ֥י ק) אֹותָ֖ם
מֵאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם עַל־דִּבְרֵ֥י עֹולָ֖ה וָזָֽבַח׃עוֹלָ֖ה whole/burnt offeringוָזָֽבַח׃ sacrificeThen Exodus 12:27

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That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses

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וַאֲמַרְתֶּ֡ם זֶֽבַח־פֶּ֨סַח ה֜וּא לַֽיהוָ֗ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר פָּ֠סַח עַל־בָּתֵּ֤י בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ בְּמִצְרַ֔יִם בְּנָגְפֹּ֥ו אֶת־מִצְרַ֖יִם וְאֶת־בָּתֵּ֣ינוּ הִצִּ֑יל וַיִּקֹּ֥ד הָעָ֖ם וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲוּֽוּ׃
שמות 12:27Exodus 12:27
וַאֲמַרְתֶּ֡ם זֶֽבַח־פֶּ֨סַח Then you shall say the sacrifice of the passoverזֶֽבַח־ the sacrificeפֶּ֨סַח the passoverJeremiah 7:22 has זָֽבַח sacrificeMaybe this influenced Jesus?An issue to consider.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

The last 3 words of Jeremiah 7:22 are "words of (a) whole offering and (a) sacrifice. (my translation)But the word sacrifice is there right beside the word "passover" in Exodus 12.I think Jesus saw Moses as not saying words that reflected history or Gods heart.See Matthew 19:8

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He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

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(see Deuteronomy 24)James was aware of scripture being changed.They knew about the contradictions between the Massorah and the Septuagint for one.Jesus said "mercy not sacrifice". He quoted Hosea.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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First, the text speaks of a single Messiah figure who will rule heaven and earth.

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Second, it mentions in the clearest language the expectation of the resurrection of the dead during the time of this Messiah.

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Third, and perhaps most important for students of the New Testament, it contains an exact verbal parallel with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke for identifying of the signs of the Messiah.

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First, a translation of the fragment itself:

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[The hea]vens and the earth will listen to His Messiah, and none therein will
stray from the commandments of the holy ones.
Seekers of the Lord, strengthen yourselves in His service!
All you hopeful in (your) heart, will you not find the Lord in this?
For the Lord will consider the pious (hasidim) and call the righteous by name.
Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power.
And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom.
He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the b[ent]
And f[or] ever I will cleav[ve to the h]opeful and in His mercy . . .
And the fr[uit . . .] will not be delayed for anyone.
And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as [He ]
For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead (lit. make live the dead) and bring good news
to the poor(Michael O. Wise, translation)
TaborBlog – Page 7 – Religion Matters from the Bible to the Modern World

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This was the basic text but he provides alot of commentary.I was just alerting people to it since there has been extremely weak examples of prophecy that Jesus fulfilled (especially from you Phat).It is a Dead Sea Scroll document.Not the Old Testament.

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What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?

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Pay attention.Here is the "prophecy" part and yes I am using the Old Testament. That much is required.

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Amos 5
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

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21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

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22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

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23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

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24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

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25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?

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26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

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Hosea 6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

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7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

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Joel 2
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

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2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
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30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

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31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

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32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

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Malachi 4
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

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2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

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3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

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4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

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5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

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NOW THE NEW TESTAMENT FULLFILLMENT ISSUES.

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Matthew 3
3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

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2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

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Matthew 9
9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

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10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

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11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

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12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

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13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

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Matthew 11

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10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

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11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

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12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

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13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

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14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

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15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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Matthew 12

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6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

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7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

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8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

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Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

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11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

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12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

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13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

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Acts 2
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

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15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

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16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

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17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

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18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

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19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

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20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

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21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

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22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

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23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

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24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

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Acts 7
42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

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43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

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44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

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45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

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46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

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47 But Solomon built him an house.

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48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

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49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

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50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

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51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

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52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

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53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

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1 Corinthians 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

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8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

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1 Corinthians 10
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

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17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

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1 Corinthians 11

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23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

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24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

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25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

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26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

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To what? All you did was quote a few passages. Tell us how Jesus did or did not fulfill the prophecies.

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It said that Elijah would return before the Day of the Lord.Acts 15:15-17 describes Amos 9:9-11 as fulfilled.

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15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

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16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

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17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

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Connected to the Day of the Lord

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Amos 5
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

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22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

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23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

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24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

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25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?

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26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

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Acts 2:16-21 references Joel 2:30-32 and the first few verses describe it as a Day of the Lord.Hosea 6 mentions a rising after 3 days and the end of sacrifice in a prophetic context.

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6 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

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2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

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3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

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4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.

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5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

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6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

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7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

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James said the gentile Christians (representing the world) replaced the old nationalism with circumcision as the covenant. So "Ephraim" would be gentiles now.

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1 Corinthians 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

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1 Corinthians 6
[NRSV not King James like other quotes]
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own?

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1 Corinthians 10
16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

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Romans 12
1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship
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For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ
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1 Corinthians 11
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

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If one allows the Septuagint to be the text of prophecy for Amos 9:9-11, then gentiles replace Israel. They become members of Christ according to the text

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Make... an... argument. In your own words, tell us exactly how those passages confirm or deny that Jesus was the Messiah. The case may be clear in your own head but it certainly isn't coming across clearly.

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I'm making an argument based on the words of Jesus himself.And James.I have no argument.The unknown gospel writers attempted to connect almost everything in the Old testament to Jesus. They saw him in every passage.I'm look at the words of Jesus, James, and Paul (plus Peter in Acts 2 if that event was historical and it could have been if they all spoke Aramaic). Paul talked about prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15.No the later evangelists

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You may think you're making an argument but I can't even figure out which side you're on. Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not?

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I wish I did a better job at things too. I just put Elkesai reincarnation into google, and guess what was nearly at the top of the over 7000 hit pages?Google (type) elkesai reincarnation2 of the top 5 were an EVC hit of my reincarnation thread. Ahead of the Cambridge History of Judaism on Elkesai.
Now I really wish I did a better job on the issue(plus I have a lot stuff I wanted to put up more, including quotes of J Vernon McGhee dancing around the issue, but Percy won't let me make pastes) since people are reading my words in a way that I didn't expect.I put mani manichean reincarnation into google and the EVC thread is at 31 out of 5000 pages hit.Google (then type) mani manichean reincarnation"Jesus reincarnation" had the thread at around 152 out of 500,000 hits. (Though "Jesus teach evolution" is at hit 36, on page 4, out of exactly 499,000 page hits)(I didn't expect the "Elkesai reincarnation" search to bring my EVC thread up, but the bombshell discoveries, in recent decades, - on the Elkesaites early existence - clearly are in need of peoples attention. They must not be getting the deserved awareness if even my weak post's are getting (what?) 20% of the attention on googles top hit page. Shows just how unaware people must be with so few internet pages on the subject. And the problem is not ignorance only of the Elkesaites.Off topic, but yes I understand my arguments leave alot to be desired. Hope I'm not wasting people's time too much.I still think we out to respect the views of the early Jewish Christians, which requires an understanding of what exactly they taught. James Tabor showed that the early Jewish Christians called themselves Ebionites (he used the New Testament text as evidence) and the non-Jews called them Nararenes.

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According to the book of Acts, which comes late in the 1st century, the followers of Jesus were called, or perhaps called themselves, the Way (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 24:14, 22). The term Christian or Christians is mentioned twice, but presented as a newly minted designation, probably coming from outsiders, as the movement spread north to Antioch of Syria (Acts 11:26; 26:28). It is surely surprising for many to realize that the term Christian only occurs one other time in the entire New Testament, in one of our latest sources (1 Peter 4:16). This is, however, the name that apparently stuck as it shows up in our earliest Roman sources mentioning the movement, namely Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian, and Galen (see texts here.). It is a Greek name, not a Hebrew or Aramaic one, but unfortunately the English term veils what was likely the more original connotation of the term, which would translate roughly as something like Messianist.

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There is, however, a reference in the book of Acts to a Hebrew name for the Jesus movement that might have well been its earliest formal appellation. Paul, on trial before the Roman governer Felix, is referred to as being the ring leader of the sect of the Nazarenes (Acts 24:5). Whether this term was used by outsiders to label the group, or within the movement itself, is difficult to know. Associated with the term Nazarenes is a second Hebrew designation, namely Ebionites, that was also apparently used for the earliest mostly-Jewish followers of Jesus.

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Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus – TaborBlog

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Back to Ringo

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Of course, you can't base your conclusion on the words of Jesus Himself; that would be like believing what a con man said about the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge.

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Better than taking the "prophecy fulfilled" references of the evangelists that wrote the Gospels. They came a good ways after Jesus, and that was just their attempt to see Jesus in the Old Testament.I will stick to words of Jesus and James myself.Not the works of later men.And that is the scripture part of the equation.When it comes to "traditions", we need to see what the Jewish Christians taught in the first century. It isn't exactly a piece of cake to find out, but we should at least agree that the 1st century Jewish Christians were alot closer to Jesus than the Roman Catholic traditions that Protestant's ironically hold so dear to their hearts. My reincarnation thread has a fundamentalist poster literally putting the authority of the 4th century A.D. Greek/Roman Christian church over the authority of the very Book of Jude itself.We need to see what the Jewish Christians believed and taught.It is important.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.