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Author | Topic: The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Did he define imminent as two thousand years and counting?
I don't see that there was any time that Paul did not believe that Christs return was imminent. Phat writes:
A lot of people have life-transforming events. Sometimes they transform your life for the better, sometimes for the worse.
I would argue that Pauls zeal and passion were based on a life transforming event.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You said yourself that Paul believed Christ's return was "imminent". Today's end-timers say Christ's return is (still) imminent. Tell them that the "signs" they are seeing are meant for a much later audience, two thousand years from now.
The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen. Phat writes:
No. That distinction doesn't work. Being paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair would definitely be a life-transforming event but few people would say it was for the better.
Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse. Phat writes:
Of course transformation can be something you do, like overcoming an addiction.
Transformation is not something you do... Phat writes:
You seem to be obsessed with the idea of somebody else doing it for you - or to you.
... though it is something you continually choose through doing.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, he says that HE (and the other apostles) received "grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith." Right away Paul talks of something we receive from Jesus. "We" are not all apostles. "We" are called by the apostles to obey. How can "we" obey without doing?
Phat writes:
You're imagining that emphasis.
The emphasis is never on what we do in and of ourselves but rather what we either do for Christ or what He does through us. Phat writes:
Again it comes back to what I have asked you many times: What does it mean to believe in somebody? Does it just mean believing that the messenger existed or does it mean believing in the message? Paul does speak of what we must do, but he says we cannot do it by ourselves. We need God in us. What does it mean to "have God in you"? Doesn't it mean to internalize the message? If you internalize the message - i.e. if you DO what Jesus told you to do - you do "have God in you" whether you say, "Lord! Lord!" or not. And if you DON'T do what Jesus told you to do, you DON'T "have God in you".
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
YOU don't get it. The messenger is irrelevant. Whether he exists now or whether he ever existed doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you believe about the messenger. HE wanted you to believe in the message.
You still dont get it. The messenger not only existed...He exists now. Phat writes:
I have never said any such thing. I say that we have to take responsibility. If we just sit around having faith, watching our fellow man suffer, we will never have inner peace. You seem to think that the source is unimportant...just as jar does. This is a mistake in that you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace. It is not the faith that brings inner peace. The faith is supposed to produce the works. If there are no works, there is no real faith. Faith without works is dead. And frankly, the inner peace is less important than the works.
Phat writes:
You keep ignoring the question: What does it mean to "know God"? What does it mean to "have God in you"? What does it mean to "believe in God"? By preaching that the source(GOD) is unimportant and that it is all about what we do you have eliminated the teaching concerning knowing God through Christ. How can you know God without doing what He wants you to do? How can you have God in you without doing what He wants you to do? How can you believe in God without doing what He wants you to do? The DOING is the sign that your faith is real. It's the fruit that keeps your dead branch from being thrown into the fire. It's what distinguishes the sheep from the goats.
Phat writes:
You're twisting the metaphor. The root is not a source that gives the plant purpose. It's a part of the plant. The root nourished the plant and the plant nourished the root.
Our root is our very Creator and the purpose He put within us.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I should have been more explicit with my quote. I was referring to, "...you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace."
You seem to think that the source is unimportant.
ringo writes: I have never said any such thing. Phat writes:
I can do this all day: What does it mean to love God? The Greatest Commandment supports both of our views. It supports my contention that the source(or messenger) is important.(Love the Lord thy God will all thy heart, soul, mind,and strength) And it supports yours: Love your neighbor as yourself. Does it mean to blather mindlessly: Let us praise God. O Lord...
Or do we love God BY loving our neighbour?
Ooh, You are so big... So absolutely huge. Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You. Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and... And barefaced flattery. But You are so strong and, well, just so super. Fantastic. Amen.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I don't think there was much difference between Saul's belief and Paul's. What changed on the road to Damascus was the way he externalized that belief.
Would you say that Saul believed in God? If so, what changed on the road to Damascus? Phat writes:
Why did Winston Churchill change from a Liberal to a Conservative (or vice versa, whichever it was)? Was it because he changed? Or was it because he thought one party could forward his aims better than the other?
And yet Saul did far different things than Paul the convert did. What changed? Phat writes:
Both Saul and Paul did what (they thought) God wanted them to do. Saul took the Jewish hierarchy at their word and Paul took Jesus at His word. Who's to say which of them, if either, was right?
Evidently Saul of Tarsus did not have God "in" him. Phat writes:
It shows that his idea of what God wanted him to do changed.
The evidence only shows us that Saul changed. Phat writes:
He would, wouldn't he? That was the message he was selling. It's like Henry Ford telling you that God wants you to buy his cars. The author suggests that it was the voice of Jesus that caused Saul/Paul to change. Edited by ringo, : "Whose" --> "Who's"
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's nonsense. Our own problems are ongoing. We can't sit and watch the world burn until our own petty problems are solved. We HAVE to solve the world's problems alongside our own.
We need to get it through our heads that we wont change the world or explore the universe until we solve our own problems. Phat writes:
On the contrary, we need to have our own internal source of wisdom and love. How it gets internalized is optional. If you want to believe it came from God or Long John Silver that's fine, as long as it's internalized and not just an outward profession.
We need to realize that we are not our own source of wisdom and love.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And I will continue to point out that the only sign that "we actually have Gods Spirit within us" is when we bear fruit:
... I will argue that only when God becomes known---through Jesus Christ---do we actually have Gods Spirit within us.quote: Phat writes:
How on earth would that enhance responsibility?
Why cant we ask God in and let Him be our source? It does not absolve us of responsibility...rather it enhances it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What does any of that have to do with responsibility? if I am depressed, in debt, unhealthy, or just plain tired I will be much less able to leave my house and be anywhere near as effective at helping others. How am I going to help you with your depression if I am depressed myself? You're suggesting that you're more comfortable "with God in you" and thus you're more capable of helping others? But the reality is that people who profess to "have God in them" often make excuses for not helping others - the old "feed the soul before the stomach" nonsense, for example. I would say that seeing other people in need makes me uncomfortable, which enhances my sense of responsibility.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I don't think I've ever said that works are a justification. The doctrine was that "by grace are ye saved through faith" - i.e. faith is the justification. BUT, as I keep trying to tell you, real faith is manifested by works. Works are the only outward sign of real faith. If you don't do the works, you ain't got the faith, no matter what you profess. The only real value of the faith is the works that it produces.
Paul bought up faith credited as righteousness and that works appear to be an obligation rather than a justification.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Matthew 25.
The question? How does God see this child? Does it matter if he dies without accepting Jesus Christ? Phat writes:
What would that add?
My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And my question is why don't you frame every envelope that comes in the mail? How do you decide which envelopes are more important than their contents?
My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him? Phat writes:
I'm asking you. What does a framed envelope on your wall add?
...lets ask Jesus...
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We're talking about neither. We're talking about putting the container before the contents.
But we are talking about life rather than death. Phat writes:
That's just meaningless gibberish. Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity. Jesus lives eternally. He will never be a dead saint on the wall, nor a mere crucifix around the neck...He is the message. The message is, "Love God and love thy neighbour as thyself." How can you love God except by loving your neighbour? But that isn't even the message that Jesus brought. We already had that message. Paul said so. The message that Jesus brought was, "Don't let religion get in the way of what you already know. You know it's right to help people so don't let arbitrary rules like the Sabbath get in the way of that." Jesus brought that message to the Jews and Paul extended it to the Gentiles. You're doing exactly the opposite.
Phat writes:
Will Matthew 25 convince you?
... you wont convince me that feeding a hungry guy is enough.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Genesis agrees that we inherited the knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve. And Paul agrees that the Gentiles follow the law instinctively.
Where we differ, however, is that you think humans are already equipped with all they need to go out and do good works...thus proving their faith. Phat writes:
That's just mumbo-jumbo.
John 1 affirms that the Word is Jesus. Phat writes:
That still isn't true, no matter how many times you tell yourself it is. In fact, I would love to be able to believe in a sky-daddy who would make everything better. It just isn't true.
You never have liked religion and you see no need for a savior... Phat writes:
I don't need to be reminded. Ask Paul.
...aside from one who reminds you to go feed people. Phat writes:
That's what I'm asking you: Why do you ignore the general principle in Matthew 25 and attach yourself to a few specifics that seem to contradict it? You should be starting from the general and judging the specifics by the general, not using the specifics as an excuse to discard the general.
as for matthew 25, I'm wise enough to understand that one scripture does not a Bible make. Yes, it was Jesus talking. Yes, it has a valid charge. But why not look at everything Jesus said?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That makes NO sense. I keep asking you, do you frame the envelope and throw away the letter? Of course you don't. That would be stupid. So why do you keep making the same senseless response?
The messenger is the message! Phat writes:
We're gonna trust the friggin' MESSAGE.
Who else are we gonna trust? Phat writes:
I think your interpretation is mumbo jumbo. It says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense.
I am curious if you think that the Gospel of John itself is mumbo jumbo, as you eloquently put it. Phat writes:
Do you read anything I write at all? I have told you time after time after time that I believe we have a responsibility to do what we can to make the world a better place. Nobody is going to do it for us.
Some of you believe that only humans can make America, Humanity, or Themselves Great Again. Phat writes:
And yet you can't demonstrate that power.
Still others...such as myself...maintain that there is power in communion.
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